23-01-2003 05:40									#31
	Got spare money?

"Just because I am the only right-winger left on this site does not mean that my beliefs are wrong because yall converted to decadent libertarianism. "

Speer, look harder. Lots of right-wingers here on Apolyton.

"i could not find a picture of cleaver i meant so i had to settle with Newton."

Sounds like a request for an avatar.

	23-01-2003 05:41									#32
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer right-wingers dislike blacks?

Not necessarily, but most people who hate Blacks are right-wingers. Overt racism as well as racist policies in the government are overwhelmingly a product of the right. Liberal racism is more paternalistic.

	23-01-2003 05:43									#33
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Hobbes:

Explain to me how this is possibly wrong?

1) Liberals see people as products of their race... after all, the whole idea of diversity is based on the idea that a black man will have different ideas than a white man and that all blacks think alike while all whites think alike. this is inherently racist and is the sole reasoning behind diversity. I think a non-racist would surely say that people are individuals and have different ideas and don't all think the same based on their race.

2) Drugs and sex were funnelled into the cities by the liberal bourgeious in the 60's... they destroyed that little thing called family values and made pre-marital sex and drug use accepted.

3) AIDs was a disease spread around by gays and is presently killing millions of Africans... hmm... first seen in gays who, because they just NEEDED their orgies, spread it around to eventually infect millions of Africans... sounds like genocide spawned from the liberal idea of free sex outside of marriage.

4) Abortion has claimed 10 million black lives... Sanger specifically wanted abortion to lower the black population and concerning how many abortion clinics and what not are in the cities, it is possible that the liberals by being all for abortion are subtly beginning a program of genocide.

I could go on and on...

	23-01-2003 05:49									#34
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quote: Eventually he himself became a conservative religous leader, and today heads his own little evangelist church.

Excuse me? Cleaver died several years ago in the early 1990's if i remember right... if you got that alone wrong, I don't know how accurate the rest of your information is.

	23-01-2003 05:50									#35
	Put an end to popups!

Eldridge Cleaver:

infodome.sdsu.edu/.../spcollections/ exhibits/0302/70s.shtml

For some more pictures, try google images. Found quite a few pictures for Eldridge Cleaver.

If you ask nicely, I bet ixnay will help you photoshop.

BTW point four is a much stronger case for genocide directed specifically at black people than three. Same point can be made without even having to bring up three.

	23-01-2003 05:55									#36
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Yeah, I think that just about describes you. . . . You do know that the NoI hates you too.

Bah... they're more aggressive against jews and gays than whites. Though, personally, I do think the NoI would be able to rise to being a far more respected organization if they tried to gain some minimal support from poor whites who are just as socially conservative (well maybe a little less as conservative as Farrakhan's whole opinion of women, etc. makes Falwell look like a liberal) and in similiar economic conditions. Hopefully, for the sake of the advancement of the NoI and for the betterment of society, the NoI after Farrakhan dies, will be more accepting of whites (you can't get what you want accomplished unless you play the political game and appeal to what the majority of americans are)

And with a last name beginning with Abdul, i doubt they would have too much hatred of me...


thanks

	23-01-2003 05:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer 1) Liberals see people as products of their race... after all, the whole idea of diversity is based on the idea that a black man will have different ideas than a white man and that all blacks think alike while all whites think alike.

Maybe when (if) you go to a university and take some Black studies classes you'll learn how FoS you are. Liberals do not see people as products of their race, but of their environment. Race is part of your environment, and only a great idiot would deny that Black people grow up in a different environment from white people.

While its true that Liberals tend to think of Blacks as being one monolithic group, that belief is by no means confined to liberals. That tends to be more or less universal among whites who have no in depth relations with Black people. How often do we see threads from right-wingers on Apolyton about how "Black people this" or "Black people that."

quote: 2) Drugs and sex were funnelled into the cities by the liberal bourgeious in the 60's... they destroyed that little thing called family values and made pre-marital sex and drug use accepted.

This has got to be the most idiotic statement you've made. Did Black people not have sex before the 60s? Can Black people not make their own problems? Are Black people just a mass to be acted upon and incapable of making their own mistakes? You're just as racist as you accuse liberals of being, assuming that Blacks are only an object and not a subject.

As for drugs, drugs came out of the inner cities into underground white culture. Heroin and pot were being used in the inner cities long before the 60s. Malcolm X talked about using tea in the 1930s, so maybe you need to learn something before spewing these ignorant "facts."

quote: 3) AIDs was a disease spread around by gays and is presently killing millions of Africans... hmm... first seen in gays who, because they just NEEDED their orgies, spread it around to eventually infect millions of Africans... sounds like genocide spawned from the liberal idea of free sex outside of marriage.

AIDS comes from Africa. Maybe you should go to Africa and ask Africans whether or not they needed the permission of the Western sexual revolution to have sex outside marraige, not that they weren't doing it before we were. You are so ignorant about Africa and AIDS.

quote: 4) Abortion has claimed 10 million black lives... Sanger specifically wanted abortion to lower the black population and concerning how many abortion clinics and what not are in the cities, it is possible that the liberals by being all for abortion are subtly beginning a program of genocide. I could go on and on...

Whites have more abotions than Blacks.

	23-01-2003 06:00									#38
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quote: Whites have more abotions than Blacks.

Che- not proportionately. Proportionately Blacks have more abortions than Whites. What about Sanger's statements? How do you justify those?

	23-01-2003 06:02									#39
	Got spare money?

Speer, it's interesting how you are constantly pointing the finger at liberals, whilst right wingers were the ones supporting slavery and whatnot. And when was the last time you met a liberal redneck?

	23-01-2003 06:05									#40
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quote: first seen in gays who, because they just NEEDED their orgies

I need orgies too, and I'm not gay.

	23-01-2003 06:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes I need orgies too, and I'm not gay.

By Speer's definition you ARe gay. Of course I would qualify for that too.

EVERYBODY needs orgies, especially Albert.

ACK!

	23-01-2003 06:35									#42
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Che- not proportionately. Proportionately Blacks have more abortions than Whites. What about Sanger's statements? How do you justify those?

I don't justify them. Sanger was a racist and eugenicist. If that were my litmous test for what we used from history we'd be screwed, since we use this government that was created by racists and sexists. We use a country stolen by racists. The fact that Sanger herself was a flawed person does not reflect at all upon abortion or Planned Parenthood. Abortion has existed since people first learned that certain herbs could stop a pregnancy (for several thousand years at least) and everyone has the right to have birth control.

Proportionally is irrelevent. Average Black family size is much larger than average white family size, so abortion certainly isn't hurting Black people. If anything it's helping them in that they have fewer mouths to feed with limited resources. Maybe if the anti-sex idiots would allow kids to have access to birth control, there wouldn't be as much of a "problem" with abortion.

	23-01-2003 07:04									#43
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quote: The fact that Sanger herself was a flawed person does not reflect at all upon abortion or Planned Parenthood.

Che, generally the goal of the founders is related to the goal of the organisation. Perhaps if Planned Parenthood has publically repudiated Margaret Sanger, then we can be sure that Planned Parenthood no longer has a goal to target black people for abortion.

quote: Average Black family size is much larger than average white family size, so abortion certainly isn't hurting Black people.

Nope. This is the difference between a successful genocide and a partly successful genocide. It does not matter whether you kill all the black people or reduce their population by a specific proportion to qualify for genocide. What does matter is the target. Are black people targetted for abortion? One point in favour is that they have a disproportionate number of abortions.

quote: Maybe if the anti-sex idiots would allow kids to have access to birth control, there wouldn't be as much of a "problem" with abortion.

Look at Uganda. Out of all the Sub-Saharan African countries, they are the only one to lower their rate of AIDS transmission, through abstinence education. Maybe freer distribution of birth control actually encourages risky behaviour.

	23-01-2003 07:10									#44
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quote: Look at Uganda. Out of all the Sub-Saharan African countries, they are the only one to lower their rate of AIDS transmission, through abstinence education. Maybe freer distribution of birth control actually encourages risky behaviour.

You're not taking into account the amount of birth-control that IS in available and educated in other African nations that have a high HIV infection rate. But, really, isn't this about North American, in peticular, the US? And is abstinence *really* going to work in the US? Com'on, no, really.

	24-01-2003 02:03									#45
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Che, generally the goal of the founders is related to the goal of the organisation.

What does your comment say about the United States? Have we repudiated the Founding Fathers?

quote: Are black people targetted for abortion? One point in favour is that they have a disproportionate number of abortions.

An intelligent person might also note that in most of the country it is impossible to get an abortion. In more than 86% of US counties, no doctor will provide them for fear for their lives, families, and pracitices because of tha anti-abortion terrorist. That means that abortion providers are mostly going to be located in urban areas. That means its going to be easier for women living in urban areas to get them as opposed to women who live outside these areas. That means that minority women have better access to abortions than do white women. Therefore the disparity in abortions across races is due to the practices of anti-abortionists as opposed to those who provide them.

quote: Look at Uganda. Out of all the Sub-Saharan African countries, they are the only one to lower their rate of AIDS transmission, through abstinence education. Maybe freer distribution of birth control actually encourages risky behaviour.

Look at gay people. When they began practicing safe-sex practices HIV infection rates dropped. They dropped so dramatically, in fact, that HIV came to no longer be seen as a danger by some younger gays who then stopped practicing safe sex. HIV infection rates among this group rose rapidly. There is a very strong correlation between safe-sex and lowered HIV infection rates.

Sub-Saharan Africa's problem is not that birth control encourages risky behavior. The problem is that they do not have access to it much at all. Men refuse to use condoms and women who obtain them are seen as sluts. There is still a widespread belief that having sex with a virgin will cure you of AIDS, and men go around infecting ever younger generations of women.

You anti-sex people are so ignorant.

	24-01-2003 02:30									#46
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quote: An intelligent person might also note that in most of the country it is impossible to get an abortion. In more than 86% of US counties, no doctor will provide them for fear for their lives, families, and pracitices because of tha anti-abortion terrorist.

Che, aren't counties a measure of geographical area, rather than population density? All you are saying here is that areas of low population density are less likely to have abortion clinics, which makes sense because clinics are businesses and need to make money. The clinics will locate where their customers are.

Impossible to get an abortion?


anti-abortion terrorist?

Please, you mean prolife protesters. Most clinics relocate because of massive protests outside of their doors. Some, like James Kopp do count as terrorists, and should be punished for their crime, after a fair trial.
However the peaceful protesters who do not block the clinic doors are not violating the laws of the US.

Che, has Planned Parenthood repudiated Margaret Sanger for her statements against blacks?

I'll let the Americans defend their own constitution.

	24-01-2003 02:37									#47
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Planned Paretnhood is only one organziation providing abortions for low income women. BTW, they also provide pre-natal care for low income women.

What you fail to realize is that at one time, doctors provided abortions in their own practices. But then anti-abortion terrorists (yes, terrorists) began targetting them with assassination, arson, stalking, etc. By the late 1980s, it was impossible to get an abortion in most of the US. Even today, you don't have to go to a clinic to get an abortion but can get one from a doctor who will provide the service.

While it's true that half the US lives in only ten percent of the area, it's also true that the other half lives in the other 90%. That later group are far more likely to be white, and being average Americans, aren't as able to take a couple days (because of various state laws mandating a 24 hour or longer waiting period) off of work to drive across the state once or twice to get an abortion.

	24-01-2003 03:55									#48
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quote: Look at Uganda. Out of all the Sub-Saharan African countries, they are the only one to lower their rate of AIDS transmission, through abstinence education. Maybe freer distribution of birth control actually encourages risky behaviour.

The program you refer to also provided condoms and more thorough counseling program than in other countries.

	24-01-2003 04:17									#49
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http://www.census.gov/population/ww...000/phc-t4.html

According to the US census,

221,301,068 million people live in 20% of the US counties. This equates to 79% of the US population.
Where it stands, almost 80 percent of americans currently have a clinic within their county.

Che,
I don't sympathise with those who bomb clinics. If guilty they deserve the punishment meted. They actually hurt the peaceful protesters, the ones trying to protest the situation in the US as it stands.

quote: That later group are far more likely to be white, and being average Americans, aren't as able to take a couple days (because of various state laws mandating a 24 hour or longer waiting period) off of work to drive across the state once or twice to get an abortion.

Which states have a 24 hour waiting period that has been upheld?

http://lists.everybody.org/archives...ber/000130.html

"In the late 1980s the government of Uganda began an ABC campaign to fight the epidemic of HIV AIDS: “Abstain, Be Faithful, or wear a Condom” in that order of importance and emphasis. HIV rates dropped 50 percent in eight years in Uganda compared to increases in the surrounding countries, according to a recent Harvard study."

“When the program started in the late 1980s, the number of pregnant women infected with HIV was 21.2 percent. By 2001, the number was 6.2 percent. The
Harvard study also reported Ugandan adults are not having as much risky sex: Of women 15 and older, those reporting many sexual partners dropped from 18.4 percent in 1989 to 2.5 percent in 2000. The emphasis on abstinence in Uganda’s
program is unique.

Jac, you are correct. However, Abstinence is promoted as the primary method of birth control , with condoms as a last resort. This differs from other countries that have huge AIDS transmissions and promote condoms
alone.