23-01-2001 10:06									#1
	Probe value bug (unbeatable probes encountered) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

For those of you who like to break puzzles here is one:
It is a SMACX PBEM started about 8 months ago (I think).

Situation is shortly this:

Way biggest faction drones
next biggest by quite a margin Angels (me) -
Angels have for a while been having an alliance with Pirates and Morgan
(sharing techs).

We are now in 2195 a war broke out between drones and Angels in 2191 -
starting with Drones buying a city and launching an attack.

There are some oddities in the way it way the game has progressed which is
the reason for this post.
Main one being that Drone probe teams seems to be able to defy normal
limitations.

The tech for algoritmic enhancement special ability is not yet discovered by
any faction (I am governor so I can see that)

---------------------------------
According to datalinks on SE probe setting:

+1 Costs of probe actins plus 50%, plus 1 probe team morale
+2 Costs of probe actios doubled, plus 2 probe team morale
+3 Units and bases cannot be subverted by standard probe teams, plus 3 probe
team morale

Covert ops centre gives probe teams +2 morale, base it is in receives +2
probe

Angels have a plus two probe benefit as part of their faction abities

Further data:

According to Bingman and all the other earlier reports I have seen
concerning this point changes made to SE settings on probe and Morale does
not happen instantly. Thet go into effect on next turn.

Example:

I change in 91 from demo to fundamentalism. Until my turn in the year 92 the
game will not have registered the change. (meaning when the others make
their moves - if they probe me my probe setting is still as it was)
It goes into effect in 92 on my turn.

There is a 1 turn delay.

This is probably because the probe variable is set at beginning of a turn
and not updated when probing occurs.

---------------------------

here is a list of years - probe actions and SE settings:

2187 Angels turn, SE setting Demo, FM, knowledge. (probe value 0) (Angel +2,
knowledge -2), SE changed to wealth in 2187 (this turn)
2188 Angels turn, SE setting Demo, FM, wealth (probe +2)
2189 Angels turn, SE setting same
2190 Angels turn, SE setting same
2191 Angels turn, SE setting same. Discovers "pre-sentient algorithms"
(gives free covert ops centre in every city for angels) (probe value +2,
bases with covert ops (all bases) +4 )
2191 Drone turn - Drones buy Angel city Gibson base with a probe
2192 Angels turn, SE setting changed to fundamentalism probe +4 (bases with
covert ops (all) +6) (Also changes to Planned and power but these have no
effect on probe value).
2193 Angels turn, SE setting ame
2194 Angels turn, SE setting same
2194 Drone turn - Drones buy Trojan Garden with a probe

---------------------------------

At this point it really does not make sense as:

It is not a matter of a 1 turn delay
since
bases with covert ops (all) have been at +6 for three turns
bases with covert ops (all) have been at +4 for four turns

It is not a matter of (as I first assumed) "covert ops centres does not
really work" (this would still make the setting +4 when last city was
bought)
It is also not a matter of the angels special +2 probe bonus is not really
in effect due to some scenario set-up bug. (Also makes it four)

As I see it there are the following possibilities:

1) changes to probe setting take more than 2 years to manifest and at the same
time Covert ops centres do not really work as advertized
2)changes to probe setting take more than 2 years to manifest and Angel
special ability do not work even if it is visibler in SE panel
3)changes to probe setting take more than 5 years to manifest
4)angel special ability and covert ops centre both dont work
5)drones have probe with algoritm enhancement even if they don't have the tech
for it.
6)the game is ****ed up somehow
7)the game is being messed with

-----------------------------------

Anyway now when we are at it gets even weirder:

A great number of probe actions have been performed by drones on me.
Estimate steal tech over 10 times.

The only probes Drones ever lost according to the millitary info screen (I
can see it as I am still governor) is two sea
probes that I shot down with a copter.

From what I can see not one has been lost due to a failed probe action or a
succesfull one where the probe was lost.
It should be said that drone probes are elite many of them (or have by now
become so) so one would not necessarily expect a high failure rate.

Still I have been having never lower than zero probe level and most of the
time plus two or better.
In my experience the odds of not even loosing one probe team (drones are at
minus two probe currently, have been at zero in between never been higher).

I cannot say exactly the number of probe actions and when, but I am sure
that lots of probing occured and that several actions will have been against
cities with high probe settings and almost certainly some against cities
probed more than once.

This is just an oddity - not necessarily showing anything in itself, but
toghether with the SE setting apparently having no effect it is a striking
coincidence.
I personally have never been anywhere near that lucky.

--------------------

Anyway the long and the short is that something is weird with this game as
concerns probe actions performed by drones.

There could be some trick being used that can circumvent probe settings -
the only one I know of is the scenario editor one.
I know the player involved and do not expect this is the case.

Assuming this is not the case it seems either:

a) there is an unknown bug in the game way bigger than what bingman reports
that dramatically affects the probe value
b) there is some bug in the setup of this game causing me to get an
effective probing penalty of minimum minus 4 (note SEpanel shows me at +4 as
expected)
c) there is some bug in the setup of this game causing drones to get a
probing bonus (or some "to hell with settings, drone probes always succed"
setting)
d) something else

For those interested here are some links which will give you lots of info on
bugs/undocumented features:

Bingman: www.xhounds.com
The comprehensive bug list: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum12/HTML/000677.html
Dreifels site: http://www.alpha-centauri-stuff.com/

I have been unable to find anything explaining this. If you can please let
me know.
It is not a so-far reported bug that I have been able to find anywhere.

Of course I may need to conclude that the game is just weird sometimes, but
normally there is actually an explanation for apparently strange behaviour
and either a reproducable bug or some combination of events can be isolated.

Any suggestions are very appreciated and will be followed up.

Kim Nielsen

[This message has been edited by buster (edited January 22, 2001).]

	23-01-2001 05:41									#2
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(bump)

Sorry, never heard of it.

	23-01-2001 07:21									#3
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Thanks anyway. I never heard of it too. Yet just saw it happen. Others who have played a lot of pbem and have or have not seen it are appreciated even if all they can tell is that.

Any comment or idea on how it could occur of course very welcome too.

	24-01-2001 00:57									#4
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Sorry, I've never seen it before either - if it has happened, I have certainly never noticed....

It sounds very strange though - I presume you have asked the person in question....

	24-01-2001 03:16									#5
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I have done some testing in the scenario editor, and although I have not tested every possible combination, the following seem to be the case:

• Covert Ops Centres do give a local +2 Probe rating
  
• Changes in Probe rating because of SE take effect at the beginning of the player's next turn
  
• A Probe rating (local, if different from global) of exactly +3 makes you immune to subversion
  
• A Probe rating of +4 or higher counts as 0!

Looks like yet another bug - and this one really hurts the Angels. In fact, when they get their Covert Ops Centres, they need to run Knowledge in order to get any Probe bonuses at all.

	24-01-2001 03:19									#6
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Is that some kind of joke?
*crosses fingers*

	24-01-2001 03:29									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No... but I cannot guarantee that it works that way in other versions than mine, or in ordinary games (not scenarios).

	24-01-2001 04:38									#8
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Thanks a lot Tau - this one was really puzzling me. At least I now know where to look. The games were created using scenario editor.

Btw the probee reported that she encountered a weird phenomenon. She says units reported that they could not be bribed whereas cities could be taken. Seems quite in line with what you say as value for cities and individual units would be different. Looks like the good old roll-over effect eating up another variable.

As a matter of fact playing angels this makes covert ops centres a bit of a problem as one would need to lower the probe value to the point where ones units are bribable (can be probed) to prevent ones cities from being so. And that you have to make a hard choice - allow either units or cities to be vulnerable.
And as Angels you cannot even sell the damm building as it is given to you after pre-sentient.

I will have to test this one a bit to work out all implications, but I must say my immediate impression is that this is one faction I might want to avoid.

	24-01-2001 11:28									#9
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Ah, yes that would explain it. Hmm not so easy to get +3 on probe exactly. Angels could manage that.

For history records: Not Drones that start vendetta but Angels themself attacks first by attacking probe units with conventional units.

Anyway now we know the problem, the CMN has to decide what to do. (Dreifels)

	24-01-2001 15:25									#10
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Excuse my language, but are you guys freaking serious??!!

I have to go test this too.


[This message has been edited by Anunikoba (edited January 24, 2001).]

	24-01-2001 21:56									#11
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A cumbersome but effective solution, might be to just declare that you have a probe rating of 3+, in which case your opponent would not be allowed to buy your cities. Fairly easy for the angels, but more cumbersome for the others, who would be fundy +2, overall, but covert ops +2, only on a base by base basis.

	25-01-2001 10:19									#12
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Yes, that could be a solution.

An explanation about the probe rate of succes mentioned earlier:

1. Since I am faced here against a combination of 3 factions sharing tech Angels were not the only object to steal tech from.

2. Most techs taken from the Angels was when they were running knowledge.

3. I have the Maritime which makes movements for elite probefoils 7 and cruisers 9. That made some new never probed before targets available.

4. The succes rate of elite probe teams is around 85-67%.

5. As known The F7 statistics don,t show all correct, I lost 1 probefoil.

	25-01-2001 16:54									#13
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Having tested for some hours with Scenario editor on various savegames I have come to same result as Tau.

As soon as one goes above +3 in probe value it becomes 0.

I was actually expecting it may be different, but it seems this is the case. My guess is that they simply did not test this out when doing the expansion pack.

In classic Smac the highest probe value you will ever reach is +3 (believer with Fundy). There are no probe setting enhancing SPs or techs.

It went screwy with Angels being able to go higher combined with probe setting enhancing buildings. The depressing thing is that with Angels there is no way I can see to ever hit +3 (as they start at +2). Meaning except for early game they will actually be rather probe-impaired compared to many other factions.

It may be interesting as a note for those designing custom factions, that possibly all SE variables will roll over at some point. At least those that are set at the beginning of the next turn (probe, morale, police). This will of course mainly be relevant if you create extreme factions such as fascists starting with +4 police or something. I have not tested this, but I would look out for it.

	25-01-2001 19:49									#14
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so far I see, the only way to analyse the problem is, that the both players (Drones and Angels) give me their password and I see into the turns all and note all details from both views.

	26-01-2001 13:11									#15
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I did some testing with the editor myself and had some pretty weird results. I think I am just going to go play as the Angels and see what happens.

	26-01-2001 23:26									#16
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You can get to +4 Probe in SMAC with Fundy + Thought Control. However, I haven't tested this yet, so I don't know whether this bug happens there.

	29-01-2001 09:43									#17
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Rollover in 3 bit variables is inexcusable, as there's no reason to treat them as other than normal signed byte quantities when there are less than 100 of these social engineering variables in the entire savefile.

Why do programmers do this?

	29-01-2001 18:14									#18
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Because they work for Firaxis...

	30-01-2001 02:01									#19
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It may not be simple 3-bit rollover. If it's rollover, and the probe rating is stored in a 3-bit field (treated as signed, 2's complement), then we'd have a range of -4 to +3. A probe rating of +4 would then be treated as -4, +5 would be treated as -3, etc. Likewise, a probe rating of -5 would be treated as +3, etc. (But I don't think it's possible to get a probe rating that low.)

If probe ratings of +4 and higher are actually being treated as 0, then it's something different.

Also, the fact that the value is correctly displayed on the SE screen tends to rule out such a simple explanation.

I still haven't tested this myself, yet. I've got a SMAC hotseat game against myself going, but it's slow....

	26-04-2004 05:14									#20
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^^

(For the Angels in the next ACDG)

	26-04-2004 08:43									#21
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I've gotten "unbeatable probe" message or something like that when I tried to use Morganite probe team to subvert a Believer unit.

	26-04-2004 09:23									#22
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Yeah - miriam starts off with a +1 probe rating for her faction, and if she changes to Fundy she moves to a +3 rating, which gives her units and bases immunity to mind control unless the prober has the algorithmic enhancement

The big debate, though, is what happens when she switches to Thought Control (another +2 rating) or a base builds a Covert Ops Center (giving that base a nother +2 rating) The clock "ticks back" from 3 instead of adding on, so the base and the faction essentially have now a +1 rating, rendering them probable and controllable

	29-04-2004 02:56									#23
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I wonder, if I made a custom faction with +1 probe, and later in the game construct Covert Ops Centers or goes Fundy so +3 probe comes up, if my bases then can be mindcontrolled as well.

I readed that except Myriam all other factions can be mindcontrolled. But for a custom faction? Would it make a difference if one remade a smac faction with Miri's .txt faction file, or a custom one of that?

	29-04-2004 03:36									#24
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Time to experiment perhaps

	29-04-2004 04:41									#25
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Barinthus, I do have a Queen to entertain, you know