22-01-2003 22:14									#1
	Unexpected collapse of Govts for War for Religious Civs Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Has any one had an unexpected collapse of a Democracy as a Religious civ recently enough to know if the game can be saved before a new govt is picked?

I have only had the collapse happen as a non-Religious civ in my own games. (When I was Religious, I brought on the change myself when the unhappiness due to the war was averaging 55% in my numerous metros [pops mostly 21 & 22.])

We need to know because if the new govt must be picked before there's an oppertunity to save the game, then only those attending the turn chat would have input if contingity plans aren't made in advance.

	22-01-2003 22:40									#2
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Comments?
I never experienced a total collapse, but I agree with joncnunn, we need contingency plans, just in case.

	22-01-2003 23:01									#3
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I have never had a collapse in civ3.

Does this even occur, or is this a civ2 thing?

	22-01-2003 23:02									#4
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I don't see any chance of that happening. What you're describing is a situation where your civ already has metros with over 20 pop., and we're nowhere near that.
However, I agree that we need contingency plans. I'd support that we choose Democracy again (can we choose the same form of government after it collapses?), but not before we sign peace treaties with all the civs that we're in war with (as I understand, this is possible since we'd spend a whole turn in anarchy, allowing us time to reach the diplomacy screen and sign peace treaties).
Let's just hope that the government doesn't collapse so we won't need to hold another elections.

	22-01-2003 23:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing I have never had a collapse in civ3.

I know this is possible, though I've never experienced it myself.

	22-01-2003 23:16									#6
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I can see the headlines :

SHAKA OFFERS SHELTER TO EX-PRESIDENT ARO

Shaka offers shelter to ex-President Aro (and his gang), fleeing Apolytonia after a total collapse of the government.
Nobody never contemplated that such a collapse could be organized in such a short period.
Concomitantly, the treasury was found totally emptied.

	22-01-2003 23:23									#7
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The strangest thing about that collapse is that none of my cities were in disorder at the end of the previous turn. (I had checked and had access to all 8 luxaries, 30% luxaries, and several entertainers to keep order.)

Still, what I did about the collapse was use the time machine back to the save I had made prior to ending the turn and signing a peace treaty with that nation; which would be illegal in the Civ 3 Dem Game.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber I don't see any chance of that happening. What you're describing is a situation where your civ already has metros with over 20 pop., and we're nowhere near that. However, I agree that we need contingency plans. I'd support that we choose Democracy again (can we choose the same form of government after it collapses?), but not before we sign peace treaties with all the civs that we're in war with (as I understand, this is possible since we'd spend a whole turn in anarchy, allowing us time to reach the diplomacy screen and sign peace treaties). Let's just hope that the government doesn't collapse so we won't need to hold another elections.

	22-01-2003 23:36									#8
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I appreciate that people are planning ahead, but we have no where near that level yet, and we have not yet used the luxury slider. 20% lux will generate many happy faces for our large cities. We do need to be worried about war weariness, but it is not yet pressing. Our best course is to refuse to ingage the Japs on their turf, (easily done), extract ourselves from the Roman conflict when the mpp's expire (3 turns I think), and be selective with Germany post Leipzig.

We are looking at the loss of furs (I think 3 turns) but we will have Steel to trade India for to get them back. We should get furs, all their gold and lots of lpt for Steel.

	22-01-2003 23:48									#9
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The fact that none of my cities were in disorder at the end of the turn in which my govt collapsed betwen turns leads me to believe that collapse of govt might be seperate than keeping order in Civ III.

	23-01-2003 00:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT SHAKA OFFERS SHELTER TO EX-PRESIDENT ARO

That would be a farce. Aro, promise me that if you ever need to shelter temporarily from the revolutionists and their sharpened guillotines, you'll seek shelter in someplace less... embarrassing. Greece, for example.
I'm sure Markos would arrange a warm welcome for you.

	23-01-2003 01:48									#11
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I promise, Shiber.

Hmmm... Where's Mingapulco? Not in Greece, I suppose!

	23-01-2003 02:16									#12
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As I recall, Mingapulco is in on the city list of one of the PTW civs.

	23-01-2003 02:19									#13
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[rp]
Government collapse? Aro fleeing to Zululand or Greece? Population support falling?

I rule the Army and Navy with an ironfist, and they are completely loyal to me. I will ensure that the President will never have to leave his home, all insurgents will be crushed![/rp]

Realistically, I don't believe the government will collapse. There are motions that we can put in effect to drastically reduce the odds of that happening. I DO think contingency plans are wise....

Obviously the doves in our nation are starting to influence the will of the people, whom have lost their will to fight....

SMC Meshelic

	23-01-2003 03:42									#14
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hi ,

, where is the save

have a nice day

	23-01-2003 03:44									#15
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So far, we have mostly talked about the possibility of this happening and not talked about what to do if it happens. Lets get back on subject.

If the government collapses, I say we go to Communism until we finish off Otto. Once Germany is removed from the picture, switch back to Demo. After all, we a re a Rel civ. Lets take advantage of it. Plus, I am mainly infavor of finishing off Otto for dipolmatic reasons. If we don't eliminate him, there would be no chance of him voting for us if UN elections were held.

	23-01-2003 03:49									#16
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If this actually happens, the chat ends and the issue gets thrown to the Senate.

As for what the Senate will do, you can expect many of us to push for going to Republic rather than Communism because of the financial situation.

	23-01-2003 03:56									#17
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Arnelos, I'm not sure if we will be able to pull up the File Menu to save the game if our govt collapses prior to picking a Governement. It looks like the Choose Govt screen is a modal dialog, blocking access to all other windows; including the main one. So if it collapses our govt and then imedately notices we are Religious and brings up the Choose Govt to end our Anarchy imedately then the President would have to pick something prior to saving the game to end the chat.

	23-01-2003 04:06									#18
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Arnelos, I'm not sure if we will be able to pull up the File Menu to save the game if our govt collapses prior to picking a Governement. It looks like the Choose Govt screen is a modal dialog, blocking access to all other windows; including the main one. So if it collapses our govt and then imedately notices we are Religious and brings up the Choose Govt to end our Anarchy imedately then the President would have to pick something prior to saving the game to end the chat.

hi ,

, well we can use the SAVE , ......

there is away around it , a guy had it done like a year ago or so , .....

maybe a mail to firaxis could bring help , ...

have a nice day

	23-01-2003 04:24									#19
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Firaxis doesn't need to be bothered, it's not a life and death issue.

Arnelos, could you elaborate more on why you believe switching back to Republic (in this case) would be more beneficial for us? I tend to disagree outright, but I'd like to hear what you have to support this case....

SMC Meshelic

	23-01-2003 04:28									#20
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My choice of Communism over Republic is war weariness. Republic suffers from it as well as Demo. A switch to Rep will just put back ta anarchy in one turn. Comm will allow us to finish what we started. Besides, I would bet that the war will last only a max of 5-7 more turns. Thats not much time to be in Comm. we would switch back to Demo the same turn we eliminate Otto.

	23-01-2003 04:40									#21
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Whatever

Why not just make sure we don't have this problem in the first place?

Up the luxury slider if we REALLY have a problem. We're making an INSANE income right now and we're ahead in science for the moment... it's not going to hurt us for a few turns.

So if it looks like we're risking it, raise the luxury slider.

If the government falls, switch back to democracy and raise the luxury slider then.

	23-01-2003 04:52									#22
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As others have said, actual disorder doesn't seem to apply; just the amount of WW in the first place. Whether that WW unhappiness is then counteracted isn't taken into consideration.

I have no experiance with gov. collapse, but I think I have seen it mentioned on other Civ3 forums. If it does occur, I'd say we should switch to Republic; we can't afford to lose our economy or research goes down the tube, and Republic's reduced WW will hopefully hold us through the rest of the war.

	23-01-2003 04:56									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep If it does occur, I'd say we should switch to Republic; we can't afford to lose our economy or research goes down the tube, and Republic's reduced WW will hopefully hold us through the rest of the war.

This was my thought as well, but I honestly don't know the specifics on whether Republic retains the same level of war weariness that existed under Democracy and just increases it more slowly or whether Republic actually is affected less by the same level of war weariness (I suspect the latter because of how war weariness exists under Monarchy and Communism, only being "visible" when you switch to Republic and further when you switch to Democracy). Since we'll only be in Republic for a few turns, we can probably wing it (especiallly if Republic has a higher tollerance for total WW before revolt... also something that may or may not be the case).

	23-01-2003 23:06									#24
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As much as I dislike the communist government, as a matter of fact i never use it, I believe it would be the best choice if we do have a collapse. Mainly because it will ensure we will not have another collapse. The likelyhood of this is small so i doubt it will happen, but it is possible. Both wars are on the verge of ending, leizpeg will fall in 2 turns or so and after that it is just mop up duty. Hopefully we will get a "peace dividend" on ww when the roman war ends.
Aggie

	23-01-2003 23:20									#25
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What I've heard about govt collapses is that if you change to Democracy it will just collapse the next turn if you don't sign peace treaties to reduce the effects of it.

I'm not sure how many more turns a Republic lasts than a Democracy for collapse of governements. I've heard that apprent 50% No More War in Democracy is often apprenent 40% No More War in Republic.

Communism isn't the only option for non-WW. Monarchy also has no-WW and wouldn't increase the corruption & waste near the P & FP as much as Communism would.
I also hear that the FP doesn't double the OCN under Communism but only increases it 25%.

	24-01-2003 01:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Firaxis doesn't need to be bothered, it's not a life and death issue. Arnelos, could you elaborate more on why you believe switching back to Republic (in this case) would be more beneficial for us? I tend to disagree outright, but I'd like to hear what you have to support this case.... SMC Meshelic

hi ,

and why not , a while ago they asked for things like that , ......

have a nice day

	24-01-2003 02:33									#27
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go ahead and message firaxis panag, if you want. I can't stop you, and of course I'm curious to hear what they have to say.

I just...don't think it's something that we can't handle ourselves. I don't think we need the help, but if you think we do, go for it. You have my blessing!

Meshelic

ps check your pm box, I don't quite understand what you were trying to say to me....