25-01-2003 22:15									#91
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

true, but i remember the retired players being smarter than they were....

i grew up whatching john john, borg, connors, lendl, wilander, edberg, becker, graf, martina, sabatini etc.....

they all had more respect for each other even if they didn't like each other much some of them..

kids today, no respect, its like that in all sports, all about $$ and cents...not about the love of the game ...

	26-01-2003 02:17									#92
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some people just have no respect for Ming rules

	26-01-2003 02:21									#93
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CW i am trying to push bringing back GW, and raising the costs of HG and pyramids to 300shields a piece

	26-01-2003 02:34									#94
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i favor bringing back the GW for non-duels, and slightly favor increasing the cost of HG and pyramids

	26-01-2003 02:43									#95
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ok, good to see your support..i think with a slight push we can get this implemented

	26-01-2003 04:18									#96
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Your arguement would make more sense on HG if you built it more often. You seem to be avoiding it to do other things. So your claim seems to be since you aren't building it you just want it to me more expensive for someone else. So it's obvious that you think those other things are more important. SO it must not be undervalued in your opinion.

	26-01-2003 04:29									#97
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NO and you know why i refuse to build it....i could have built it last night and decided not too.....and not b/c i wans't able to in time....i could have built it before i built pyramids or STWA.....but i hate building it because it makes me soft...

but if its around i will build it....but even you have to admit for its cost the benefits are better than any wonder in the game....

its just common sense....IF I built it every game i would say the same thing..... and to prove me point , i have included pyramids in this b/c i feel it does the same thing....

i am just trying to make the game more fun, but feel free to disagree.....

wonders are supposed to be great feats, not four quick caravans, at least upping the cost makes it more realistic for x2 games....which is really all i am trying to do...

in x1 i would leave most things the way they are...but we don't play x1 so i wont get into that

	27-01-2003 18:21									#98
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"makes me soft"
You don't refuse to build it, you just don't like researching pottery. In almost all those games that you claim you could have built it earlier, you didn't have pottery yet. You had better fish to fry (tech wise). Just like everything else in the game. It's a trade off. When it starts getting built before 2200 every game, I'll start worrying about that it's too cheap.

	27-01-2003 19:51									#99
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your right, i dn't actively research pottery.....it often falls in my lap as the first tech of the game and i still won't build HG....

many times i could , and i just do'nt.....but if we raised the cost some it might make the investment a better choice.

there used to be the days where i would build both hg and pyramids.....

besides this weekend i was on the pike/cat trend

either way i dont care....keep it the way it is.... *sigh*

	27-01-2003 20:00									#100
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever many times i could , and i just do'nt.....but if we raised the cost some it might make the investment a better choice.

??? how could raising it make it a better investment choice.

	27-01-2003 20:28									#101
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you know what, were never going to agree so lets just drop it....those two wonders greatly unbalance the game and if you have four studs playing all the time you would notice that it would be the first wonder built virtually EVERY game....

but until that starts happening its like being in aduel with obstacle you need to work around...

raising their cost would require more investment from players, might encourage people to spit one more set out of their cap more often due to the fact that building your wonder that is now 300 shields instead of 200 greatly increases the time your capital is unavailable...

blah blah blah.....

	27-01-2003 21:34									#102
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1. One wonder is going to be built usually first unless you can make every wonder the same value.

2. I still don't see how raising it is going to make you build it more. You don't do it now. SO, you're just trying to punish everyone but you. And that's why I find your argument suspicious. (personally I think the raising to 300 does have some merit, even though I'm not thoroughly convinced yet, but your arguement supports keeping it 200.) Which is where my confusion comes from.

RAH

	27-01-2003 23:00									#103
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JUST B/C I CHOOSE NOT TO BUILD IT , DOESN'T MEAN THAT ITS NOT WORTH BUILDING...AFTER ALL, YOU BUILD IT VIRTUALLY EVERY GAME ....

NO WONDER YOU DONT WANT TO RAISE ANY HIGHER, THAT WOULD REQUIRE TWO MORE CARAVANS....

ITS YOUR ARGUEMENT THAT LACKS MERIT RAH :P

ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU TELL ME THAT YOUR PARTLY CONVINCED. THE BENEFITS OF HG AND PYRAMIDS CANNOT BE OVERSTATED....AND AT A PALTRY 200 SHIELDS THEY ARE THE BEST WONDERS YOU CAN INVEST IN, AND STILL WOULD BE SO AT 300 SHIELDS...ESPECIALLY FOR OUR ONE NIGHTER GAMES.

YOU WOULDN'T BE CELEBRATING AS EASILY IN REP WITHOUT HG....AND YOU WOULD GROW AS QUICKLY WITHOUT PYRAMIDS IN MONARCHY....

BUT LIKE I SAID, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT

BTW, SORRY FOR THE CAPS LOCKS

	27-01-2003 23:15									#104
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You know War... you are starting to sound a bit like eyes. He insults people that don't play on his settings, and it's due to his strategy working best under those settings.

Since you don't build HG or PYRAMIDS early, you seem to want anybody that does to pay a higher price for it

	27-01-2003 23:25									#105
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no, i do usually build one of them or a wonder early, i just don't build HG out of principle and i have been stating that for along time now......

i have only just begun my crusade to change the game a bit to make it more interesting for all.....no harm in that i don't think?

no one says we have to play MY settings, in fact, we play YOUR settings every game......

i just think with double production, we could tweak the game a bit where we could all agree on things and help the rah rules evolve a bit.

again i am not pushing my rules on anyone , merely suggesting a change i think will help the game become more enjoyable, and perhaps add a bit of realism too..

really i could care less about the changes....the funny thing is most everyone agrees with my idea....they just don't want to be punished b/c i don't build HG often and i guess they feel this only benefits me.

HOWEVER, if we were to play with four equal players, HG will be built first virtually every game..bar none....

but like i said, i could care less., excuse me for trying to spice up our games a bit

	27-01-2003 23:44									#106
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I like discussing game rules. It's how we got here from there. Discussing the value of HG and Pyramids is worthy of a lengthy discussion. My bone of contention is how you're arguing it. Half of it seems to support it while the other half is arguing against it. Hence my confusion (and as always when dealing with a worthy opponent) my suspicion of their motives.

Last edited by rah on 27-01-2003 at 23:58

	27-01-2003 23:48									#107
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hehe, well no hidden agenda, just trying to make the game evolve......i have other ideas as well...but alas the changes must come slowly otherwise we create a whole new game

	27-01-2003 23:59									#108
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no problem.

But when my very very worthy opponent tells me there is no hidden agenda, that's usually my clue to start looking for one.

	28-01-2003 02:15									#109
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a bit paranoid there Rah? really just looking for ways to spice it up.....and considering i play all three settings..... no, no agenda at all

	28-01-2003 02:43									#110
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There's no such thing as paranoia in our MP games, since everyone IS out to get you.

	28-01-2003 03:28									#111
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yes, but in this case i am not screaming peace before i change the rules txt

	29-01-2003 01:13									#112
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quote: Originally posted by rah There's no such thing as paranoia in our MP games, since everyone IS out to get you.

i was never out to get anyone, annoy yes, but not get (nobody was ever drunk enough for me to get them )

	29-01-2003 01:18									#113
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by ColdWizard (nobody was ever drunk enough for me to get them )

Obviously you haven't read the thread where War4 says he forgot he was playing civ2 during a game with Ming and I. I have this sneaking suspicion that liquer had something to do with it.

RAH

	29-01-2003 01:23									#114
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that's too drunk/high. if he forgot completely the game would sit on his turn. i'd need someone drunk/high enough not to do anything, but sober enough to still end his turn

	29-01-2003 01:26									#115
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Good point.

Yes, his connection dropped and he didn't realize it for over an hour. Even funnier considering that I was on ICQ phone with him when he dropped. (that dropped too).

	29-01-2003 02:15									#116
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hangs head in shame

	29-01-2003 02:35									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ming LET'S NOT SPAM THIS THREAD LIKE THE LAST ONE!

	29-01-2003 02:47									#118
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sigh... Yeah, I noticed

	29-01-2003 03:26									#119
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on a side note i am cranky today....some $#%#$%$#% loud @$$ siren was wailing at 530 in the morning and it went on for an hour....i thought my apartment or the neighbors was on fire.....

	29-01-2003 03:28									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

sigh...