19-12-2000 00:55									#1
	Non-Lethal, Psi Gates, Children's Creches, etc. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Things that don't work like they say:

1) Non-Lethal Methods don't actually double police powers, right? It's been a while since I looked at this, but if memory serves, two units with non-lethal methods will only pacify three drones. Or am I thinking of the way that Non-Lethal Methods combine with some social engineering choice, or secret project? I know there's something funky going on here. Anyone know what's up? (Sorry that's such a vague question).

2) Psi Gates can only send one unit a turn, but can recieve any number, right? It doesn't say this in the datalinks.

3) I remember a huge argument about how Children's Creches work. I remember everyone agreed the datalinks were wrong, but no one agreed who was right. Who was right?

4) What else doesn't work like it's s'posta?

	19-12-2000 01:14									#2
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Helium,

1) Non lethal ability. I beleive the actual effect is that each non lethal unit polices 2 drones to workers. The rub comes about when running +3 police wherein police effect is supposed to be doubled. In this case one would expect each NL unit to police 4 drones. In reality the effect is 3 (apparently the double police effect ocurrs for the unit policing and the special Non Lethal ability adds only one extra police effect after the doubling is calculated.) This being said the best one can police with 3 NL units is 3*2 + 3 or 9 total drones policed to workers.

2)Pisgates. I think you are corect

3)Childrens Creches - My head is still spinningo ver that arguement. I don't know which is right.

4) Ability to build rivers next to each other. Econ ratings and effect on base square and trade bonus are not what datalinks say. Hmmm... I know there are other as well but am drawing a blank.

	19-12-2000 01:33									#3
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I'll try to clarify the Children's Creche issue.

From what I understand the Children's Creche actually gives your unit a one level bump in morale permenantly and negates the effects of any negative morale modifier (the (+) symbols you see next to some of your units morale ratings) while you are in your terrirtory, not just your base square.

	19-12-2000 01:41									#4
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Ogie Og, thanks for the responses.

1) So, if Non-Lethal read "if police allowed, +1 drone pacified," it would be correct?

3) Can you summarize the positions? One person was saying the Creche gave a morale boost only inside their territory, and the other said it gave a boost over the whole map? Or something like that? The links say the Creche only cancels out negative modifiers, but that's totally wrong, right? Any help is appreciated.

4) You mean how you can build rivers next to each other if you start them on the same turn? Okay, yeah.

Do you know how the Econ thingies really work?

	19-12-2000 02:10									#5
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I believe it was Marione who was correct stating the info I gave above and it was Adam Smith who was saying that the datalinks were correct and that there was no morale boost. He also refused to believe that the units negative moral modifiers were negated when the unit left the city with the Children's Creched in it as the datalinks suggest.

	19-12-2000 02:31									#6
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It would be tough to give a comprehensive answer on item 4 for sure. zsozso's bug thread was huge and most of the problems have not yet been corrected and probably never will.

Nevertheless, I still love the game.

	19-12-2000 16:58									#7
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Helium,

1) Police effects. Yes that would be a fair way to advertise the NL methods effect.

2) Econ rating

What Datalink say

Econ rating

+1 Each Base square +1
+2 Each Square +1
+3 Each Square +1 , Commerce +1
+4 Each Square +1, Base Sqaure +2, COmmerce +2
+5 Each Square +1, Base Square +4, Commerce +3

What you actually experience

Econ Rating

+1 same as above
+2 Same as above
+3 Each Square +1, Base square +2 (I don't know what commerce goes to unfortunately)
+4 Each square +1, Base Square +4

	20-12-2000 03:01									#8
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Thanks, Og, cool. And +5?

	20-12-2000 06:35									#9
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There were many different issues and sides on the Creche thing. I was inclined to agree with Mario though, since he tests things instead of repeating over and over again that 'the datalinks & manual say ...'.

Anyway, the way I understood it was that any unit homed to a base that has a childrens creche looses all negative morale penalties due to SE choices (if applicable), and gains a plus one morale bonus. The negative effect of 1/2 bonuses from facilities (+1 instead of +2) due to SE choices still holds if applicable. This is true as long as you remain inside your territory.

The other points of view were:
Above holds true anywhere on the map.
Only true inside the base for units homed to it.
That it was only true inside the base, but worked on any unit inside that base, not just ones homed to it.

I think (hope anyway) that covers it.

	26-01-2001 13:20									#10
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Just stumbled on this thread. Was the Children's creche dispute ever figured out? I would like to know if anyone ever got to the bottom of this one.

	26-01-2001 15:39									#11
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2) Yup. Psi Gates are one per customer outgoing, unlimited incoming.

	27-01-2001 01:08									#13
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Anyone know about the children's creche issue though?

	27-01-2001 04:27									#14
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Read my post above.

	27-01-2001 11:57									#15
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Still a little vague: so the bonus given by the creche (negative mod, +1 morale) is given to units who's home base is creched, and so long as they remain within the dotted lines, they retain these effects?

Just clarifying...

	29-01-2001 20:45									#16
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Yes, that's how they suppossedly work. Note that Creche's effects are described very differently in the SMAC handbook.

	30-01-2001 10:29									#17
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In an attempt to bring some finality to this discussion, I have tried the different combinations in the scenario editor. So, these are the morale effects of the Children's Creche:

It does not affect the halving of beneficial training effects from Command Centres, Bioenhancement Centres etc.

It affects the basic morale of a fresh unit if you have a Morale SE setting of -1 or -2; in that case fresh units are Green instead of Very Green. (They are still Very Green at -3 or -4 Morale SE.) Bonuses due to facilities are added to this base.

Units in the base square get a temporary positive morale modifier, shown as a series of '+', as follows:

-4 or less Morale SE: (++++)
-3: (+++)
-2: (++)
-1: (++)
0 or greater: (+)

This modifier works both in attack and defence. Note that the bonus given is the number of negative morale shifts (which is different from SE value!) +1, which is what the datalinks mean when they say that negative morale modifiers are ignored and units instead get a +1 morale modifier.

(These are not the only ways to get (+) after a unit's morale. Very Green units always have one (+), which works only on defence. It is superseded by the bonus above. If you have a +2 or +3 Morale SE, your units get an extra morale bonus on defence, which is marked the same way, and is cumulative with the bonus above.)

None of the bonuses depend on your territory. They either apply everywhere (in the case of the basic morale level adjustment) or only in the base square (in the case of the temporary bonus).

	29-01-2001 23:36									#18
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So you're saying the handbook is correct? That goes against several previous tests that others have conducted.

	30-01-2001 03:12									#19
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I am saying that what I have written above is correct, whether it is in the manual or not. And although many people have claimed that effects apply within a player's territory, I have never seen any of them refer to any tests. If you disagree, making your own tests is easy enough - load up any game where you have a CC and move the unit out of the base. The morale bonus will disappear...

	30-01-2001 03:51									#20
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Sorry Tau, I wasn't trying to accusitory. It's just that I was suprised. And reading what you wrote, it sounds identical to the way ChCreches are described in the manual, excepting the very green is always green thing. If I recall correctly, the manual says something like:

Negates morale penalties, instead the unit gets a plus one morale modifier. This applies to a unit in the base square.

Did you test if the unit has to be homed to the base in question, or if it applies to any unit in that base square?

	30-01-2001 04:28									#21
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Yeah, sorry, I can get a bit touchy about my test results, and could definitely have written that last post in a less confrontational tone. I apologize.

The bonus applies to any unit in the base square. I have not tested if it also applies with pactmates, though.

The Green/Very Green thing only affects units that are homed to the base.