23-01-2003 03:09									#1
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quote: Message recieved recently from Picahulu: Trip, the people of ND are furious. Be warned that Neu Demogyptica won't accept any more border violations. Of course we'll inform the other nations about your careless and impudent behaviour, so that everybody is warned there may be an early war where the Ottomans are to blame. We expect you to apologize for this invasion immedeately if your nation wants to exist any longer. Picahulu, ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

	23-01-2003 04:17									#2
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How was putting our city there "careless and impudent"?

And I somehow doubt that they'll be able to convince the other teams to turn against us.

	23-01-2003 04:29									#3
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They did the same to us, in the past (with a scout). Kindly tell them that.

	23-01-2003 06:10									#4
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Remind them that THEY couldnt agree on the borders and it was THEM that didnt make the border agreement official. Therefore has the border been signed we wouldnt be where we are. Tell them very aggressively and flip out.

We need to be aggresive in words cause that would show them how hypocritical we think NDE is and perhaps could rile up NDE to attack us, but in the eyes of GoW and RP, NDE would be acting violent agst us... if we explain the situation exactly.

Tell them trying to kick us out of the land we tried to settle by just settling first was not a smart move either. They called the shots first, we countered and we won the horse spot... now they wanted diplomacy? They're the ones who tried to attempt to settle without agreement~

In ADDITION. Settle this GoW/RP tech trade issue. Our only achilles heel would be that. Had I been here I would have said to tell the truth, make it seem like we had no incentive to lie to either of them (which is why i told everyone NOT to talk too much about it). If we attempt to lie there is just too much high chance of us being burned. (what if GoW decides to test us by not trading HBR? What would we look to RP if we cant offer our end of deal?) unless somebody told RP that we were specifically going for HBR, then it was a misunderstanding we could have capitalized on... but once its lookin fishy to them dont try to drag on to it...

Last edited by Zero on 23-01-2003 at 06:21

	23-01-2003 13:17									#5
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Calc proposes a forceful response, while the other comments recommend a more polite focus. However, everyone seems to agree that an apology is unacceptable, and a way to point out their hipocracy is necassary, even if it is in a polite manner. What should we do? I favor a more polite approach... no need to cause conflict early. Our military is still rather weak (2 Spearmen and 2 Warriors in Luxia and the Military Border), and we are not yet ready to start a large buildup. Soon, however...

	23-01-2003 16:47									#6
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I'm with Calc. How could we have violated a border agreement when there was no agreement in the first place? And if there were a border agreement, weren't they the first to violate it with that scout?

	23-01-2003 17:47									#7
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I think they are referring to the fact that our Warrior in the SW is actually within their cultural borders. He is, however, journeying south, out of their cultural influence.

What we could do is the following:

• Tell them that it is not our intention to cause a crisis.
  
• Politely tell them that no apology will be made, because scouts have been wandering in our lands, too.
  
• Offer to withdraw the offensive warrior from their lands: we could ask them to give orders to it (for the shortest route back to Luxia, for example). The idea is that we might get scouting maps from GoW anyway. There is a possibility that we miss out on the location of a western continent next to ours, or maybe miss a goody hut (but I think there are no more left on our continent). We will need them to remove their scouts from our lands, too. This has the advantage that they will not discover our trump card: Vox.

	23-01-2003 19:09									#8
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Hmmm...I would be subtle but forceful, if you understand me...some sample text to follow:

I believe that we should send out the following letter, PM'd to all foreign ambassidors. We should act hastily to build support for our point of view.

My proposed letter follows:

Our dear neighbors, Demoegypticans, listen to my words, for surely neither of us is prepared to ruin ourselves over a petty quarel such as this.

First, let me point out that it was your nation who so kindly tossed aside the original border proposition presented to you circa ~3500BC. Since tossing the propsal, and pissing on it with your barbaric disrespect for common decorum between nations, you were first to build a city in the proposed border region. Naturally, our civilization responded in kind, circa ~2400BC.

Nations of the world, I point further to the constant disrespect and hostile actions of our savage neighbor, Neo Demoegyptica. I beseech you to understand the horrendous and disrespectful acts of their chaotic malcontense.

Luxia has busily made mutual agreements-or at the very least our people have made peaceful overtures-to all of you based on respect and a decorum of common curtousy worthy of any fellow civilization.

Neo DemoEgyptica has striven at every turn to ignor the common courtesies due to any of us in their communications or lack-there-of with our nation.

If there is a war, it will indeed not be our fault, but rather the unfortunate eventuality when one nation-NeoDemoegyptica-refuses to respect the diplomatic relations of other nations.

Civilized peoples of the world, I beseech you to analyze the situation for yourselves. Analyze the evidence presented below. I believe that you should possibly all come to the same or similar outcome. Uncivilized savagery currently vomiting from the chaotic leadership of this disquieted neighbor, the ignominious Neo Demoegyptians, cannot be tolerated!!! All enlightened civilizations should band together to discourage such outrageous and discourteous conduct from a neighbor. NDE must be taught to respect the rules of respectful decorrum recognized by enlightened civilizations. If they will not learn, and if they will not respect our neighborhood, then why should they be allowed to exist? Clearly, such disrespect for friendly neighbors can only lead to dreams of open hostility, bread by infantile notions of grandeur and megalomania!

Our civilization, as do the rest of you, strive for peaceful coexistence and good neighborly conduct. Mutual assistance to end a common threat should fall into this body of argument. I call for a common discourse to resolve these heinous actions by the Neodemoegyptians.

Will you, our enlightened neighbors come to our aid and resolve this future threat and dire crisis before us?


The body of evidence of the distrust we should all show towards NDE follows:

1) Their scout has scouted all of our soveriegn terretory despite our diplomatically voiced objections. We could have easily destroyed the scout, but chose to foster trust between our nations. Trust which was never returned in kind, nor even acknowledged.

2) We proposed a border arrangement with NDE. The border was to lie along the mountain range east of their capital and the hills west of ours. It was our understanding that the valley between would be a neutral/DMZ zone. However, we were rebuffed by the choas within the leadership of NDE and no further overtures from our side were ever responded to, nor did they ever offer any solution.

3) The border proposal was precipitated by our scouting warrior siting their settler. NDE retreated their settler, and we made no plans to colonize the valley, in the hopes this was to remain neutral ground.

4) Around 2500BC we moved our first settler towards the North end of the valley, well within the context of the agreement we had proposed, which NDE so vehemently disregarded out of blind disrespect for the common courtesy and respect that should be afforded to any enlightened civilization.

5) As our settler neared its final destination, they spotted an NDE settler well south of them and moving toward the heart of the same valley which we believed should remain neutral ground and built a city. Our settler then settled in a pre-arranged location still outside of the declared neutral zone. NDE's actions were in clear violation of the border arrangements that our diplomats had been discussing with NDE.

6) Now that one of our scouting warriors has inadvertently crossed into their cultural border, they react with utter disgust and vehemence, as surely the children they are! Any enlightened civilization would have given diplomacy a chance, and given the rules of common decorum befitting such communications, the situation would have easily and peacefully been handled. We were just following the coastline and will be out of their borders in the next turn. Why should they claim natural rights to explore our terrain and not expect the courtesy of reciprocity?

	23-01-2003 19:24									#9
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We need to get a formal response widely distributed among all of the other nations that we have contact with. If they want a war, then they should know who they're going to be fighting agains! Hopefully, my letter will bring a swell of sentiment and support from GoW and RP.

	24-01-2003 07:29									#10
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We need at least 2 horsemen and maybe 3 or 4 spearmen before thinking about war I suggest.. a couple of invasion warriors would be good too.
as i said in the latest turn thread,
Maybe we could think about making alliances for war in 15 turns.. this is a guess really but we need to plan things.

You need to tell them they are breaking our 'border treaty' by making a city over the mountain range area.. and that the border treaty was never finished anyhow.

I think we should say we are sorry if we violated any land they make a claim to ( say it like that) but begin to warn them that we have many strong alliances and technologies that we can use to crush NDE if they become hostile and get in our way.
Say none of us wants to lose any units and cities so early on, we should wait and see what happens.

You could say we will be able to trade horseback or writing techs (or polythiesm etc) for a cheap deal for them, if they stay peaceful and help us/ don't annoy us.

We want to make the game as fun for everyone as possible, so maybe we shouldn't destroy NDE or anyone completely, assuming war will come soon.


I think we need at least gow or even beter RP as allies in this, depending on their millitary strength, and we should let them invade and lose troops, so in the end of the war we have lost little of our army and gained the most of the enemy territory.


PJ

	24-01-2003 07:33									#11
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Lets send in the weapons inspectors into Demogyptia, to find 'weapons of mass destruction;

	24-01-2003 07:54									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I think they are referring to the fact that our Warrior in the SW is actually within their cultural borders. He is, however, journeying south, out of their cultural influence. What we could do is the following: Tell them that it is not our intention to cause a crisis. Politely tell them that no apology will be made, because scouts have been wandering in our lands, too. Offer to withdraw the offensive warrior from their lands: we could ask them to give orders to it (for the shortest route back to Luxia, for example). The idea is that we might get scouting maps from GoW anyway. There is a possibility that we miss out on the location of a western continent next to ours, or maybe miss a goody hut (but I think there are no more left on our continent). We will need them to remove their scouts from our lands, too. This has the advantage that they will not discover our trump card: Vox. Is this too weak a move, or is it diplomatically fitting? What we must do anyway, IMHO, is point out that RP is getting too big a player for their back yard if we continue this petty quarreling.

I was thinking about the city, not the warrior. Then the situation is different, Do not be polite. We dont want to look llike we want to avoid the war. Just make it sound like we dont want to start the war, but in no way we look like we want to avoid thw war at all cost we are weak.

there is such thing as being too polite, and if you look like your too negotiable and too weak-opinonated, then people tend to try to push you too hard.

	24-01-2003 13:08									#13
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Good point, Calc. But the fact is that we just completed our Granary and will now be ready to pump out Settlers. We don't want a war, really...

	24-01-2003 18:29									#14
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My letter doesn't call for war...it merely makes a strong case for building a coallition against NDE in the case that they don't come to their senses and we end up going to war.

Perhaps some of the language could be toned down, but the heart of the letter should be exactly how we persue this. Firm, and counter-accusatorial, and calling for a reforendum of neighborly nations to deal with NDE's overtly aggressive tactics.

	25-01-2003 00:06									#15
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quote: In our exploration, we had not expected that this situation would occur. Our intention was never to cause a disturbance between our two civilizations, only to discover more about the land where we reside. The passage through your territory was for to save time in our passage to the south, not for the sake of intrusion. However, you yourselves have entered in lands claimed by us many times, despite how we have remained cordial and looked aside when these violations occured. In contrast, your civilization warns us every time we near your lands. My civilization does not look favorably upon this. A war would mean a loss of units and a loss of repuation in accordance to other nations, which is undesirable. However, if you feel that petty border infractions is a cause for war, then we leave that to your judgement. Yours, Trip, Administrator Lux Invicta Demo Game

Sent.

	25-01-2003 00:10									#16
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Nice.

	25-01-2003 02:22									#17
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The key here is to continue to make the case that NDE is not to be trusted. That is our best hope since they are clearly continuing to try to be aggressive. We have to remain on friendly terms with RP, as much as we might dislike them having a lot of room to expand, since the chance of us getting an alliance with NDE to counteract them is nil for the time being. (and GoW is too far away to be of any use against RP). We should make an effort to turn GoW against NDE though. We need to 'work' GoW and RP against NDE, to prevent us from getting isolated diplomatically.

	25-01-2003 06:31									#18
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I feel GoW is already too happy to deal with NDE. RP will offer monetary assistance for at least the foreseeable short term...maybe with proper planning RP could bring some units up, but they're so far away.

Personally, I would rather see a cold war between us for about 15 turns, then let the war heat up

	25-01-2003 12:21									#19
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We have not been fully settled in 15 turns. Only after we have I want a war.

	25-01-2003 17:22									#20
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War only after our third city is adequately defended (and we have the necessary offensive units of course).

	25-01-2003 20:05									#21
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I have to agree with CiverDan, and disagree with BFM.

More pressing matters will so come to bare and we will be left with no choice. I'd rather be prepared, rather than scrambling to secure a defense. NDE's military is already larger than our own. Their retoric as of late leaves me with no doubt about future events. I give us enough time to build our third city, defend it and build up a light defense on our western front before NDE goes crazy.

This will require us to temporarily halt our peaceful expansion plans.

6 turns to build the next settler, about 7 r eight more to move it, then 10 to defend it...

Our other cities will have to be militarily dedicated after the construction of the second settler. It would be folly in our geo-political environment to do otherwise. This would give us 17 turns of military production after the settler is built and until the city has a spearman or a warrior at the very least. In that time we could have 3 or 4 horsemen and a free spearman perhaps in the hills and mountains around Regio Equorium.

If they don't attack, it will be because they can see our strength. But, in any case we will need to attack them soon after the 23rd turn from now.

	28-01-2003 04:33									#22
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We need more cities... our priority is not to go to war with NDE right now. What would it bring us? Nothing. We will go to war with them eventually, so any land they acquire will soon become ours anyways. There is no pressing need to fight them now. It will only slow us down. We need to form a solid border with them, and down in the south, along with a firm coastline for exploration and colonization before seeking out a war. If we go too early, we run the risk of fighting alone, with an inadequate army, a strong chance of defeat, little to gain and much to lose. Going to war in the near future willing is absurd, as far as I see things.

	28-01-2003 19:27									#23
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Well said, Trip, I'm sure I stand alone on some of my opinions, but such is the nature of governance.

All I have to say is that you guys have your work cut out for you if you expect to hold NDE and GoW back with deplomacy...which is our only option...

	28-01-2003 21:42									#24
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I've had my work cut out for me for quite a while.

	28-01-2003 22:57									#25
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Volunteers are a win-win for the rest of society. They do all the work, and they either become everyone's hero or everyone's scapegote