24-01-2003 14:18									#31
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quote: Moreover, seeing my favourite vicotry is diplomatic, no human player would vote for any other seeing that it would make them loose the game, so victory by alliance has to be enabled.

He said it was already.

quote: I liked the idea of the two aliens, though. Ill look at the specific conditions of play later, and post more about it.

? The Alien factions are grossly unbalanced. Success as an alien is just a vindication of that faction's effectiveness, not really of your playstyle.

	24-01-2003 14:20									#32
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U mean in under 100. Well against his proff of effectiveness I have a proof of mathematical intelligence : it worthes more to transcend later.

	24-01-2003 14:22									#33
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Your point being? He was quite capable of doing so if he wished, and would have got far more points from TT than he would have lost from time.

	24-01-2003 14:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak After feb 12. Allowing only probes is also biasing the challenge : the only way to conquer base will cost EC, and not minerals, making the advantage of Planned unsignificant compared to the credits of Free Market.

And the +1 Industry of Planned, allowing you to pump out facilities quicker, isn't a significant advantage? (If you said "No it's not, because you're going to be earning 1000+ a turn by 2200 (without commerce, even higher with it) and rushing facilities like mad, then you're right!)

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Also, we should play with bugs fixed.

I assume you mean by that we should play SMAX.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Thats even better, with a faction of n cities popbooming, you get n points a turn and let "lose" 2 points a turn... It is mathematically obvious that you get more points by population than by fast transcendance.

And it's mathematically obvious that I'd still therefore have a higher score than you by purposly drawing out my transcendance, since under my playing style, I'd be ending up with Pop 125 bases by that year you named earlier. Furthermore.....you were saying you were a Diplo victory, while I was doing transcend. I'm already 600 points ahead of you from just that, and my pop at the early stage of the game is in all likelyhood equal to whatever you had when you won anyway (Around 200~300 usually.), so I still beat your score.

Oh, and as for "proof of mathematical intelligence".....GT was right. I get all the techs in under 200 turns, transcending in the 2200's. In under 100 turns would mean transcending before 2200. I can't quite do that yet. (That's usually about when I do my Fusion Lab/Hybrid Forest/Genejack Factory credit rush.) Can you count Pan?

	24-01-2003 14:43									#35
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It is obvious there will be no game that will be played between us.

quote: And the +1 Industry of Planned, allowing you to pump out facilities quicker, isn't a significant advantage ?

If war is made by credits, and only by credits, the advanatage of having +1 Industry is less worthy. Thus it's biased.

quote: I assume you mean by that we should play SMAX.

I was even speaking about the two aliens.

quote: Oh, and as for "proof of mathematical intelligence".....GT was right. I get all the techs in under 200 turns, transcending in the 2200's. In under 100 turns would mean transcending before 2200. I can't quite do that yet. (That's usually about when I do my Fusion Lab/Hybrid Forest/Genejack Factory credit rush.) Can you count Pan?

Most certainly, I can count. Transcending in 2299 isnt that impressive actually... I understood by in the "2200's" between 2200-2210. A whole century of marge sounded quite gross for your obsession of effecetiveness.

	24-01-2003 14:51									#36
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quote: I was even speaking about the two aliens.

Do you actually want them in the game, and is so, why?

quote: Most certainly, I can count. Transcending in 2299 isnt that impressive actually... I understood by in the "2200's" between 2200-2210. A whole century of marge sounded quite gross for your obsession of effecetiveness.

He specified 'in the 2200s', without saying when. Hence, saying 'under' 200 turns doesn't mean he did it in 199 turns, just specifies the maximum number of turns it could have taken.

	24-01-2003 15:02									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak It is obvious there will be no game that will be played between us.

Because you're a coward.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak If war is made by credits, and only by credits, the advanatage of having +1 Industry is less worthy. Thus it's biased.

Then here's a novel idea. Since I was banning war in that original proposal if you hadn't noticed, why not just restrict Probe Actions so that you can't MC bases?

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak I was even speaking about the two aliens.

And saying you wanted to play with Bugs fixed. SMAX didn't fix that many bugs. It actually added a rather major one too.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Most certainly, I can count. Transcending in 2299 isnt that impressive actually... I understood by in the "2200's" between 2200-2210. A whole century of marge sounded quite gross for your obsession of effecetiveness.

I fail to see Pan how you can think that Transcending in a time on par with people like Flubber, Mongoose, Hendrik and Silkander isn't impressive. For the record, my usual Transcend time would be between 2230 and 2260, depending on how much time I stuffed around with military.

	26-01-2003 23:15									#38
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Unfortunately, its a tie. The choices will therefore be between Planned 50/00/50, FM 40/20/40 and Green, and if Green passes, new elections will be held to determine the energy allocation.

	27-01-2003 00:22									#39
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Damn, I knew I should have noticed this, and voted

I would be up for the game, but I don't have SMAX (or rather, I have it, but I don't have an SMAC disk, and my registry is f**ked, so i cannot install it) so I guess I won't be able to. I also think having one person (Archaic) dictating the rules is a little biased. I think Maniac's idea of a large map was better, although personally, I think for purposes of removing bias, playing with random map and default rules is best. But whatever you guys decide.

quote: Btw, am I the only one who would prefer the heated and filled-with-insults "My playstyle is better than yours" discussions be held in PMs or at least on the strategy forums?

I think everyone bar Archaic wants that. Insults serve no purpose, except to undermine the credibility of the author, since it looks (even if it isn’t) like their resorting to insults.

	27-01-2003 01:22									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic But in any case, if this game isn't going to be used for that sort of purpose, how's this for rules.

quote: SMAX

quote: Cloned factions allowed. (ie. I play with the University, not with the Morganites, so both me and TKG are going to need .)

quote: Huge Map

I'd go for Large map, as with huge map you hardly come into contact. If you want a simple comparison builder game with little to none human diplomacy, we could just play the same SP game each on our own. Personally I'm not interested at that at all.

quote: Do or Die: eliminated players are not restarted Spoils of War off Non-Blind (directed) research

quote: No random events

Well personally I like those. We'll just have to vote by majority I guess.

quote: All victory conditions allowed including cooperative. Coop victory is limited to two non-submissive players. Unity survey off - map is unknown Look first on

quote: All other rules as per the PBEM tourney http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=14379

quote: Start conditions: Tournament map: Headquarters established with Children's Creche, Recycling Tanks, Perimeter Defense, Network Node and Recreation Commons All factions start with the starting techs of all factions in the game (eg. if Gaians, Hive and Morgan are the players, they all know Centauri Ecology, Doctrine: Loyalty and Industrial Base) 200 starting energy credits, except Morgan has 400 Each faction starts with 4 independent scouts, 1 former and 4 colony pods, plus 2 non-independent formers

Isn't that a bit exaggerated? How about we start with three colony pods and two scout patrols?

Who did you have in mind as CMN? I had thought of Googlie.

Ah yes, of course probe actions and war should be allowed. Without that no longer count me in. As said before, without that we can just as well play a SP game.

	27-01-2003 01:30									#41
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Oh yes, personally I would also allow the stockpile energy bug. When you don't put something else in the build queue after a unit, another unit automatically starts producing if I'm correct. While when you finish producing a building or SP, the production automatically switches to stockpile energy bug, giving you some free energy credits. Thus forbidding the stockpile energy bug favours a builder style over a conqueror style, while allowing it evens the playing field for everyone.

	27-01-2003 01:32									#42
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I'm not really interested in fighting other people, or even malicious probing (ie MC or sabatoge). I just wanted to see building strategies compared in an arena that everyone could agree was fair and relatively conclusive. Just talking about it has proven ineffective in that regard.

	27-01-2003 01:38									#43
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And why do we need a PBEM for that? If you want to compare builder strategies, the best method would be you seek a map and a starting location everyone can agree with and then everyone who wants can play a SP game with their preferred faction starting on that location.

	27-01-2003 01:41									#44
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If there would be no questioning the validity/integrity of the results, I would go for that.

	27-01-2003 01:44									#45
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Oh yes, let's not forget the factions I prefer. My most beloved faction is the UoP, but since there are already two other UoPs, the chance is minimal I'll get the Virtual World, which is quite important for me when playing that faction. Leaving him out, I'm in doubt between the PKs, Pirates or Consciousness...

	27-01-2003 18:50									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I'd go for Large map, as with huge map you hardly come into contact. If you want a simple comparison builder game with little to none human diplomacy, we could just play the same SP game each on our own. Personally I'm not interested at that at all.

Hardly come into contact? Only if you don't do any exploring whatsoever. And given how so many people here seem to sprawl instead of be a hermit....

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Isn't that a bit exaggerated? How about we start with three colony pods and two scout patrols?

Those are the rules for the tourney map. We'd go by the rules for the random map.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Who did you have in mind as CMN? I had thought of Googlie.

Agreed if we can get him, otherwise I suggest Darsnan.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Ah yes, of course probe actions and war should be allowed. Without that no longer count me in. As said before, without that we can just as well play a SP game.

That was only for the "battle of the builders" that I'd originally proposed. Obviously for this game we're talking about (The one Pan isn't a part of), that's not the case.