25-01-2003 23:01									#31
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quote: but then civ would be no fun, as it's all about what would be if....

That's the point...civ is not supposed to be realistic...could you imagine all civs "starting" in 4000bc and developing the same?

	25-01-2003 23:36									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Emma well if your on about how civ is unrealistic... just think of the tech tree. the wheel for example. it was only in columbus' time that the wheel came to the americas, asia, japan, china, india, africa. only europe and arabia had the wheel. if you want it realistic then you need civ specific techs. but then civ would be no fun, as it's all about what would be if....

hi ,

the modern version came with columbus , agreed , but they knew the wheel since ages , ...... ( inc and azt )

have a nice day

	26-01-2003 00:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by epics Albert: small countries like Switzerland (Szwajcaria ), Nederland, Belgium, Luxemburg or some bigger like Irland have little or none of natural resources which they could trade to others and they are well organized and wealthy.

epics:
yes, but exept for switserland they got great allies and has always had the tecnology and is in the european union and is considered to be good trading partners because they are stabil, and infrastructure helps with that, but they got their wealth because of counquering and slavery as well.

In fackt, the wealth of all of this countries is based on trade with other countries, and I think almost every well functioning democratic country are.

	26-01-2003 15:05									#34
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switzerland is not in the european union, and doesn't have the euro. switzerland is a neutral country and they make their money with banking.
as to modern version of wheel. well... of course they all had round treetrunks and used them. but ropes and pully? that sort of thing is also "the wheel"

What slaves did switzerland have??? maybe when they were ruled by the romans. but ... at that time the swiss were the slaves.

	26-01-2003 17:14									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Albert epics: yes, but exept for switserland they got great allies and has always had the tecnology and is in the european union and is considered to be good trading partners because they are stabil, and infrastructure helps with that, but they got their wealth because of counquering and slavery as well. In fackt, the wealth of all of this countries is based on trade with other countries, and I think almost every well functioning democratic country are.

Yes, trade. But in Civ when you are a small nation, withaout any resources, what are you going to trade!!??

Infractructure helps but every nation has a bank, marketplace, coutrhouse... but not every nation has that good administration to organize that all. That's why some nations are wealthier that the other. Unfortunately the administration isn't implemented in Civ . So you only build, build, build, build... In Comunism they were also building and now you see where it had brought them.

So maybe some things should be produced not only sold. How about some car factories or TV manufactories .
(Am I spelling all that right?? )

	26-01-2003 17:41									#36
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Administrations ARE implemented in civ3. Anyway that's what I call it when I get to choose the form of government, build temples, courthouses, irrigate land and so on.

But I would definetely like to be able to sell stuff to other civs that are not just raw-materials. A factory that made TV's, cars, china, guns, canned meat or liquor would be very cool.

	26-01-2003 17:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by epics Yes, trade. But in Civ when you are a small nation, withaout any resources, what are you going to trade!!??

exactly my piont, without anything, you are nothing, and the countries that are rich today did all have something, and in civ, if you never have anything, you will never get allies or tradingpartners and will soon be wiped out.

quote: Originally posted by epics Infractructure helps but every nation has a bank, marketplace, coutrhouse... but not every nation has that good administration to organize that all. That's why some nations are wealthier that the other. Unfortunately the administration isn't implemented in Civ . So you only build, build, build, build... In Comunism they were also building and now you see where it had brought them.

Now this is a good point. What good does it make to build courthouses to decrease corruption if the judges are corrupt. Now this is usually a question of good overall education in the country and good moral. maybe constructions like courthouses and universities should`t have an immidiate effect, but slowly grow like culturepoints.

quote: Originally posted by epics So maybe some things should be produced not only sold. How about some car factories or TV manufactories . (Am I spelling all that right?? )

yeah, and what about Sid Meiers game factory as well.
And it would make one more happy face every 20turn when a new patch was realeased

And about the spelling, seems alright to me, though I don`t know if I got it right, so let this be up to the judges in england or the US

	26-01-2003 17:55									#38
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As for the trade:
Many countries do not have any resources, they import them, manufactor it and sell the product.

As for corruption:
In real, if you have organized country, IT'S limmited. No matter you have 1 or 10 courthouses. In Civ you just don't have control over it. YOU JUST BUILD THE COURTHOUSE AND WAIT FOR IT TO START WORKING. Zero hard work!!!!

	26-01-2003 18:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by epics As for the trade: Many countries do not have any resources, they import them, manufactor it and sell the product.

yes, but its difficult to establish anything without some money in your pocket in the first place.
I know Japan is an expert in this, but there they buy everything just to make the neighbour jealuos, so you can construckt anything over there and you`ll have success, a bit more difficult for countris of the 3.world. The rich countries will make trade barriers if they try to produce anything which another coutry is produsing

quote: Originally posted by epics As for corruption: In real, if you have organized country, IT'S limmited. No matter you have 1 or 10 courthouses. In Civ you just don't have control over it. YOU JUST BUILD THE COURTHOUSE AND WAIT FOR IT TO START WORKING. Zero hard work!!!!

Mayby courthouses should`t have effeckt without library and university to educate judges. But to me, building a university and maintaining it is hard work. If you have education institutions you`ll have administration, though the immidiate effect of this education institutions isn`t very realistic

	26-01-2003 18:48									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Albert yes, but its difficult to establish anything without some money in your pocket in the first place. I know Japan is an expert in this, but there they buy everything just to make the neighbour jealuos, so you can construckt anything over there and you`ll have success, a bit more difficult for countris of the 3.world. The rich countries will make trade barriers if they try to produce anything which another coutry is produsing

The things you produced you could sold in your own country, to your own people, gaining some profit and happy faces.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Mayby courthouses should`t have effeckt without library and university to educate judges. But to me, building a university and maintaining it is hard work. If you have education institutions you`ll have administration, though the immidiate effect of this education institutions isn`t very realistic

I would say educate some workers at School, than build factory, library, university, bank...

	26-01-2003 19:03									#41
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Trade ROPs and maps.

	26-01-2003 19:03									#42
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quote: Originally posted by epics The things you produced you could sold in your own country, to your own people, gaining some profit and happy faces.

Yes, that is a way to start it,though it takes a lot of time. And if the country is corrupt in the first place, the only result you get is politicians and rich people to take advantage of the poor.
At the moment I`m staying in Brasil, and it`s a perfect exemple of this. It`s a big country and got all the factories and rescourses they need, but the money is mainly ends up in a politician or a rich mans hand.

quote: Originally posted by epics I would say educate some workers at School, than build factory, library, university, bank...

Isn`t building them a way of educating them? The people are already there, the production shilds must be something

	26-01-2003 19:17									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Yes, that is a way to start it,though it takes a lot of time. And if the country is corrupt in the first place, the only result you get is politicians and rich people to take advantage of the poor. At the moment I`m staying in Brasil, and it`s a perfect exemple of this. It`s a big country and got all the factories and rescourses they need, but the money is mainly ends up in a politician or a rich mans hand. Isn`t building them a way of educating them? The people are already there, the production shilds must be something

If it was for the Civ: "How to help Brasil?" Build some courthouses and police stations (does police station reduces corruption in 1.07?)

The second one I don't quite understand.
I am saying that when you educate Factory Worker at school, you can build a factory. This one worker would be a director, and the factory would then do the things the way it does now, no additional workers needed.

	26-01-2003 19:32									#44
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quote: Originally posted by epics If it was for the Civ: "How to help Brasil?" Build some courthouses and police stations (does police station reduces corruption in 1.07?)

More police was actually a main debate issue during the election down here three months ago, but there`s already so much police that finding EDUCATED policemen is difficult, and of course, a lot of them are corrupt as well. Not just the normal policeman, but the ones controling the police deciding who to shoot.

wich leads us into what has to do with civ3 in our little conversation. There is so many policemen, that building more police station want make any good unless educating them as well.

quote: Originally posted by epics The second one I don't quite understand. I am saying that when you educate Factory Worker at school, you can build a factory. This one worker would be a director, and the factory would then do the things the way it does now, no additional workers needed.

Now I understand, you want educated workers before you can build a place for them to work.
To this I can`t say more than this has been taken care of by the tech tree. If you can build a factory, then you have the engeneers to do it, and teach them how to work there.
So if you have a university, you`ll probably have teachers there to learn them how to run the factory.

In my oppinion, universities should be more and more expensive to maintain when you gain more techs. After all you need more and more teachers to work there, and universities usually expands as well.

	26-01-2003 21:05									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Now I understand, you want educated workers before you can build a place for them to work. To this I can`t say more than this has been taken care of by the tech tree. If you can build a factory, then you have the engeneers to do it, and teach them how to work there. So if you have a university, you`ll probably have teachers there to learn them how to run the factory. In my oppinion, universities should be more and more expensive to maintain when you gain more techs. After all you need more and more teachers to work there, and universities usually expands as well.

So you are saying that if you don't have an University in a city it can't build a Factory?

And with the Increased cost of University is quite good, the same should go for the Sience Lab, maybe some other buildings: Bank, Marketplace, Catherdral, Colloseum, Factory etc.

	26-01-2003 23:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted by epics So you are saying that if you don't have an University in a city it can't build a Factory?

Now that seems a bit difficult to defend, but as we were talking it seemed like a good idea, but I don't think they should implant this in the game

quote: Originally posted by epics And with the Increased cost of University is quite good, the same should go for the Sience Lab, maybe some other buildings: Bank, Marketplace, Catherdral, Colloseum, Factory etc.

seems like beeing the headline for a new thread to me. but i have to go, wont be back for a while i think. As already tolk, I'm in Brasil, travelling.

	28-01-2003 13:20									#47
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I've never looked at the buildings as actual building per se, but rather as representations what systems are in place in a given city. A library dosen't mean that's there's simply a library there, but also a basic school system, reading programs, etc. Similarly, a marketplace isn't just a spot in the middle of the city, it also represents trade-friendly laws, perhaps tax benefits for merchants, etc.