23-01-2003 20:21									#1
	Why Does The Demographic of Employees Matter? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Why is http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2687247.stm even a story at all?

quote: Making sure women stay in technology jobs is as important as persuading girls to pursue such careers in the first place. This was the view of a succession of speakers at the third annual Women in Information Technology conference held in London on Wednesday. Currently too many women are leaving the profession and this flow must be stemmed if the UK is to have an equal percentage of men and women in the tech sector

And it doesn't surprise me the Beeb didn't place that last paragraph in speech marks - sliding to the left all the time.

	23-01-2003 20:23									#2
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The reality is it matters very little to anyone other then the socialist garbage of the earth.

	23-01-2003 20:25									#3
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Oerdin

	23-01-2003 20:25									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The reality is it matters very little to anyone other then the socialist garbage of the earth.

	23-01-2003 20:25									#5
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That should make Che real happy, Oerdin.

	23-01-2003 20:33									#6
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quote: this flow must be stemmed if the UK is to have an equal percentage of men and women in the tech sector

In what way would an equal percentage of men and women in the tech sector be an advantage? In what way would it be a disadvantage?

Answer to both questions: In no way whatsoever.

So why the hell is this news? Seems a bit daft really.

	23-01-2003 21:12									#7
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet So why the hell is this news? Seems a bit daft really.

Probably because of the increasing number of women in the UK media.

If there are more men than women in an employment sector in the UK there are cries of outrage and demands to give more jobs to women. Yet the UK television industry is going through a phase of male presenters being kicked out after allegations of misbehaviour in their private lives and replacing them with young women (who may be nicer to look at but then spoil the effect by opening their mouths and spouting drivel) and no-one says anything.

Bringing in more women seems to be something we do in the UK when we want to undermine a profession (teaching, medicine, law) and get it done for lower wages.

	23-01-2003 21:51									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The reality is it matters very little to anyone other then the socialist garbage of the earth.

It matters to me, we need our coffee wenchs.

	23-01-2003 21:58									#9
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It matters since some people seems to think it will change something fundamental about society.

I personally think they are missing the point.

If you want to be popular and do something about unequality it's much easier to try to change the number of people in different sectors and places than actually try to do it something about the fundamental "problem" (if you actually think it's a problem). Affermative action is easy. It's also hard for many women that's into this to understand that women are about half of the source of the "problem". Maybe even more.

	23-01-2003 22:10									#10
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Companies benefit from diversity on many levels. First, there is simply the good PR of having an employee body that shows all facets of society and manner of employees. When people see a company where there is good diversity, it gives a sense that the company has a healthy culture that can attract anyone, it has progressive policies in general and seeks to operate in a non-exclusionary manner.

The biggest benefit, however, is in marketing services and products to various communities. If a company wants to target black clients/consumers, it is very helpful to have a black company member who can help convey the company message. This works also for women, gays, etc. People within certain groups feel most at ease hearing company messages from other members of their group, since they can more easily relate.

This interconnects with the first point, as a diverse company will be more likely to attract diversity candidates for jobs who are truly excellent and can then work to expand the company's reach into diverse markets. A brilliant gay advertising executive who would bring in millions in could very well decide not to join an agency where the environment didn't make him comfortable, no matter how much money they offered him.

	23-01-2003 22:43									#11
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Yes, Boris, but IF women leave the tech sector, shouldn't that be their own choice? I mean, apparently, they were hired in the sector and then decided to leave. What's the problem with that?

	23-01-2003 22:44									#12
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"The biggest benefit, however, is in marketing services and products to various communities. If a company wants to target black clients/consumers, it is very helpful to have a black company member who can help convey the company message. This works also for women, gays, etc. People within certain groups feel most at ease hearing company messages from other members of their group, since they can more easily relate."

Very true and very relevant... if the article was talking about Marketing positions.

Here is the real issue:

"Part of the problem, said Ms Hewitt, is a perception that it was impossible to balance a career and children in the often tough world of technology.

Hewitt: Something is wrong in retaining women
More flexible working and "giving more women the confidence to challenge a workaholic culture" were crucial she added. "

You accept the job, you enter their culture. You have to adapt, not the others. A man who "challenges" the culture is put out on his ass (or, at least, denied promotions and raises) - and properly so.

The fact is, somebody who puts in 14 hours a day is going to get better notices than one who hits the door every day at 5:00pm. That's just the way the world works.

	23-01-2003 22:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Companies benefit from diversity on many levels. First, there is simply the good PR of having an employee body that shows all facets of society and manner of employees. When people see a company where there is good diversity, it gives a sense that the company has a healthy culture that can attract anyone, it has progressive policies in general and seeks to operate in a non-exclusionary manner. The biggest benefit, however, is in marketing services and products to various communities. If a company wants to target black clients/consumers, it is very helpful to have a black company member who can help convey the company message. This works also for women, gays, etc. People within certain groups feel most at ease hearing company messages from other members of their group, since they can more easily relate. This interconnects with the first point, as a diverse company will be more likely to attract diversity candidates for jobs who are truly excellent and can then work to expand the company's reach into diverse markets. A brilliant gay advertising executive who would bring in millions in could very well decide not to join an agency where the environment didn't make him comfortable, no matter how much money they offered him.

Zylka says, "Seriously... Shut the **** up and worry about life for a change, ok?"

	23-01-2003 23:08									#14
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I'm tired of all the whining from women.

Here's what I propose:. Fire all men from their jobs. This would be goverment enforced of course. Put women in their jobs and give them more pay than men.

Maybe this will stip the whining

	23-01-2003 23:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Very true and very relevant... if the article was talking about Marketing positions.

Considering the title of the thread, I think Bodd's was using the tech issue as an example of why he thinks seeking diversity in a company is somehow stupid. I was merely countering with examples in which is it quite pertinent. If he just wants to confine the discussion to the tech sector, so be it, but I don't think that was his aim.

quote: Zylka says, "Seriously... Shut the **** up and worry about life for a change, ok?"

Considering the above has a great deal to do with what I do for a living, Zylka can take another hit from his crack pipe and shut the **** up himself.

	23-01-2003 23:56									#16
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"Considering the title of the thread, I think Bodd's was using the tech issue as an example of why he thinks seeking diversity in a company is somehow stupid. I was merely countering with examples in which is it quite pertinent. If he just wants to confine the discussion to the tech sector, so be it, but I don't think that was his aim."

Point taken.

	24-01-2003 00:04									#17
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What about diversity in the Home Workforce?

Most of the domestic engineers are women (stay at home moms). I want more diversity in this field! I want to stay home all day!

...though I may be asking for it.

	24-01-2003 00:06									#18
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Diversity in the workplace should be irrelevant, except way too many people care about race. Stupid racists.

	24-01-2003 02:51									#19
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I don't exactly agree that we need more women, etc. in the workplace, but it is important that way change the way people act about certain other people learning things. For instance many believe that the reason many women don't pursue fields dealing with math and some sciences is because in their education there is a stigma against women being smart at something that easily definable (you can argue whether someone writes well to a point, but in math there is only one answer). So some women are intimidated out of the field. Personally, I would have liked to see more women in enginerring when that was my major - there was ~15% women in Engineering and in the other schools it was a lot closer to 50/50 except CS, which was again a lot lower. Obviously something's odd and I'm very curious as to what the exact problem is and how we can alleviate that.

BTW, I couldn't believe that some senior women in high school wanted to be stay at home moms - I wasn't prepared for the idea that people I had gone to school with would just up and quit learning and not work. Especially since TV culture has really pounded in that women can be anything they want.

	24-01-2003 03:06									#20
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I was going to post, then I saw that it was a Spink thread, so why bother.

	24-01-2003 03:17									#21
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quote: And it doesn't surprise me the Beeb didn't place that last paragraph in speech marks - sliding to the left all the time.

If you'd quoted it in full, instead of cutting it off mid-sentence, then the reason it doesn't have speech marks would be pretty obvious.

quote: Currently too many women are leaving the profession and this flow must be stemmed if the UK is to have an equal percentage of men and women in the tech sector, said Trade and Trade and Industry Secretary Patricia Hewitt.

	27-01-2003 18:12									#22
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Boris - you say a company might want to employ a black or gay person in order to appeal to either the racist or heterophobic attitudes of their customers.

A while back, you made the argument that gays should be allowed to adopt, and that any teasing the adopted got at school was society's fault, so it shouldn't stop gays adopting.

These are mutually exclusive positions.

	27-01-2003 19:20									#23
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Only to you bod.

	27-01-2003 19:38									#24
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If we limit ourselves only to the engineer sector, I would say the main benefit is that the employees will feel more comfortable when both sexes are represented. I know I would be very reluctant to work only with guys.

On a more general scale, there are lots of jobs that would need more people of the other sex. It is good both for society and competitiveness.

	27-01-2003 20:12									#25
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In case you didn't notice, there are major differences between men and women. If all environmental conditions were equal, the ratio of men to women would not be 50-50 in any industry, so why do we continue to strive for this pointless and unattainable goal?

	27-01-2003 20:54									#26
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I don't hear much being said about male primary school teachers..

Or white footballers in the national team..

	27-01-2003 23:06									#27
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And I think more men should be in the watressing field as well. WTF

	28-01-2003 14:40									#28
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Good sense from Castigastia. since men and women are very different, having different skills and likes/dislikes. Such has been proven in scientific studies. People should pursue a career that is right for them, ideally something which matches thier skills and which they will enjoy doing. This 50-50 milarky conflicts here with both common sense and the needs of society in general.

I'm not sure why the Media has to print such rubbish. I know there is always pressure from the government and lefty sewage to inforce such ideas on us, but is our population so dim-minded as to actually take it on!?!

	28-01-2003 20:16									#29
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By the looks of this thread, yes they are.

	28-01-2003 20:48									#30
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The point is us geeks can't find girlfriends if women don't work in the tech sector. So we just have to unleash worms and viruses to vent our frustration.