23-01-2003 22:35									#1
	In the beginning: How many settlers? Increase the size of your Attachments

In the beginning, during the pre-monarchy and monarchy phase, I have at least one settler per city for roadbuilding and irrigation and mining purposes.
Some German players say that's a waste - but my experiences are very good with this.
The high food cities (2x irrigated wheat or more) are my settler breeding farms are good for expansion, the high production cities are good for building caravans and sometimes a diplo (for barb bribing) or a trireme.
Normally I manage to build some ancient wonders as HG, MP, GB (won't let it to the AI, I don't put the focus on it), Colossus (no problem if a neighbour civ gets it
Then Mike's, Bach's, Leonardo's, Adam Smith's, Magellan's - (for I need not a great army, I let the AI build STWA, and the Eiffel Tower, too - but the rest of the wonders is mine!)
Having 20 or more cities, I keep up to three of my core cities building wonders.
So back to the thread. Let's speak about the first 3 milleniums.
One settler per city (sometimes 2) - how many do you use?
I always try to make my strats better.
I must say that most of my games end in an eternal war with all the other civs (except, maybe 1 or 2 allies) and that I always go to AC - with a population between 400 and 800 million people (when I decide the spy war and power democracy way).

Last edited by ramses II. on 24-01-2003 at 01:53

	23-01-2003 22:46									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Before Monarchy, why irrigate? Better to build another city, or a road for the trade and defense utility. Your cities can't be growing THAT fast to need irrigation. Besides, before Monarchy, supporting more than 1 settler from a city will probably create a food or support deficit.

I try to keep a number of settlers around, but there's no hard and fast rule. If I have a big map and get HG early, I crank out settlers nonstop to stake out territory, and then crank out more settlers to fill in the infrastructure.

I've had games where I had 40 cities and 40 settlers/engineers, and others where I had 40 cities and 10 engineers.

Also, don't keep your core cities building wonders... have them build caravans. IMO.

	24-01-2003 01:46									#3
	Support Apolyton

In another thread I started where I explained the benefits of irrigating buffaloes (and one of the SG's of irrigating plains and wheat and oasis and so on). But the first years I build roads and mine and grab for hidden specials.
If you build caravans in all your cities, you waste a certain amount of shields - and normally I'm short of gold in the beginning - no money for incremental buying.

	24-01-2003 02:25									#4
	Put an end to popups!

i get my first five cities down ASAP.....unless bad huts delay the innevitable approach to monarchy, i just pump out more sets which will road for future caravans, road specials, and/or do a mine or two if necessary. i like to have them positioned for immediate building once i am in a monarchy.

If monarchy is going to take awhile to get to b/c of bad hut luck, then i may build more than one warrior per city and i will build more than five cities so long as i have a defender when i plop them down to quell the martial law problems which spring up in despotism.

of course once you get over 708 ciites one warrior isnt' enough, and two are needed in most ciites. an units which aren't four legged will come back to the empires current out fringes to prevent barbs from raping me.

if i should find tribes/nomads i will send any new troops from huts to those cities for protection from the ai and of course barbs.

terrain dictates alot and so do the huts, but for the most part i can generally have five cities and 2-3 sets out by the time i scoop up monarchy (2450-2850).

IMO, its key to plop down as many cities in the heart of your empire to take advantage of as many science beakers as possible while a despot

	24-01-2003 03:17									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by ramses II. Some German players say that's a waste - but my experiences are very good with this.

I agree with them. Build roads only.

(For next purposes I will define 1resource=1food(F)=1shield(S)=2trade(T).)

Compare 2 possibilities:
Possibility 1: Build a settler and found a new city:
input: 40 S (settler), 20 F (so that the former city is not disbanded), 10-20 S (units - defense,martial law). Total input: 80 resources.
output: Usually the neat (you spend 2 food per turn) output from a 1-sized city is about 4-5 resources per turn.
So you invest 80 resources and you produce 4 resources per turn: in 20 turns you will have a new settler, then you will need say 4 turns to reach the square for the new city: you invested 1$ and after 22 (=20+4/2 - your first city produces new things these 4 turns) turns it was doubled into 2$.

Possibility 2: Delay a new city and Irrigate
Irrigating lasts 5 turns, but usually you need some time to get on the sqaure and from there, so say 6 turns.
input:
max. 1 S + 1 F (settler support) per turn, but sometimes settler has no shield support or food goes from a city that don't need food. So say 1 resource per turn. Also a settler transformed into a city would produce those 4-5 resources per turn.
So say input is 5.5 resources per turn, total input is 33 resources.
output:1 resource per turn.
So you invested 1$ and after 33 turns it was doubled into 2$.

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Before Monarchy, why irrigate?

I agree. In deity 1 shield (that is invested into founding of a new city)(or 2 gold used for a rushbuy) is much more effective than 1 food. I start to irrigate only for WLTxD needs under Republic.
But in chieftain it needn't be true. In other words the chieftain level is better than deity: it is better balanced .

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Also, don't keep your core cities building wonders... have them build caravans. IMO

Do you want to say it is better to build a wonder in one turn from caravans? I agree. No shield waste and opponents don't know your plans.

	24-01-2003 05:03									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ramses - its time for you to join one of our succession games!!!!

The SGs remarkably sober - well nearly

	24-01-2003 05:35									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Ramses - its time for you to join one of our succession games!!!!

or at least read some of them, but you more easily see the effects of the strategy by doing. Our Nothin' Fancy Sxn Game (v 2.42 only) has gotten off to a slow start, but seems to be following an ICS strategy of many setters atm, so may be of interest. most of the rest of them seem to be in MGE format, and play with various handicaps to challenge people

	24-01-2003 10:38									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

@SG(?)

I read all the sxn game threads.
Will join one of them soon.

	24-01-2003 14:30									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If you play SP you wont notice the difference between the various approaches, because there isn't a great deal in it. But there is something in it however, and in MP you see that. It is of critical importance not to stem your initial exapnsion for the sake of early (and costly in terms of turns) improvements. I'm with War.....5 cities, have a bunch more settlers, some improvements now, hello monarchy, and finally more cities.

	24-01-2003 18:26									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I recall the thread about irrigating bison, and my objections to that approach

My point, IIRC, was based on the resource square usage theory. If you irrigate the bison, the city will grow faster - which you don't want in despotism, really. You want to max food at size 1, and max shields at size 2.

At size 2, you don't really WANT a food surplus, because if the city grows to size 3, you'll have unrest. Better to found another city with the settler, or build a road for your mobile defence (and the arrow, incidentally). IMO.

	24-01-2003 19:44									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

@styom
I want the city grow faster - more production, more trade, more science -> earlier monarchy.
And if there's a trade special (e.g. silk) I'll put the 2nd or 3rd citizen to work on it - delayed happiness problems.

	24-01-2003 20:01									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If you want more growth (production, trade, science) - all the more reason to found a city with the settler instead of irrigating. The new city will produce twice as much as an extra pop point on an existing city.

	25-01-2003 01:48									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Growth over irrigating early. Hands down. The only exception for me is when the turn my settler is built, the barbs show up in the area where I was going to send him. Since he may have to stand around for a few turns, I may road or irrigate while he waits.

RAH

	25-01-2003 01:59									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

RamsesII,

I think your ideas are fine, just not so perfected in terms of "time".

The key to refining one's game revolves around logistics and efficiency. Sequence is important.

Think of this example. Your army (real world) will be conducting operations in the mountains in deep winter. They will need white, winter-weight clothing--then. If you fill up the supply chain with these goods before they are needed it will mean something else will not get done--now.

Eventually, those tiles will need to be irragated; but, if you do it too soon, you give up things that are very important now. It's a concept best expressed in Economics as opportunity cost. For the extra food that you do not need now, you give up roads and new cities that are needed now.

For everything to click with highest efficiency, your logistics have to be in the proper sequence. On time, in time, at the right time.

Well, that's my view. But, if your way is enjoyable for you it will certainly 'work'. Have fun!!

Monk

	25-01-2003 09:44									#15
	Support Apolyton

Before I settle down, I build 1 or 2 roads, if there's no special like whale or pheasant. Is that delay ok?

	25-01-2003 10:48									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Mm. Tough call there, ramses. My instinct is to say 'no' - rather than spend 2 turns roading a square (plus time to get to that square, if applicable), you could wander further and possibly find specials, OR build a city and collect 2 arrows in the same time frame it takes to create a road that will create one arrow. Bottom line is, 2 arrows in Despotism is still just 1 beaker/turn - same as 1 arrow is. The extra gold is nice, but I don't think I'd spend 2 turns roading before founding, to get it. Those are 2 turns longer to get to Monarchy, 2 turns longer to build your first unit, etc.

The more I think about it, I think I'd wander rather than building roads/founding in a spot with no specials or rivers.

	25-01-2003 15:46									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man The more I think about it, I think I'd wander rather than building roads/founding in a spot with no specials or rivers.

Yes! Wander away and find some specials or huts. Before you have founded the outcomes from huts are all positive ... except useless science if you want to attempt an early landing. If huts have yielded some gold you can always catch up by using the capital/settler trick. With only one city you may rush build a settler before the capital has reached size 2. This allows a quick third city or the chance to "b" the extra settler back into the capital as soon as it reaches size 2.

----------------------

SG(2)

	25-01-2003 20:57									#18
	Capital/Settler Trick Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

SG(2)

Thanks for that reminder. Haven't done that in years. One of the, more and more, noticeable artifacts of getting older is leaky memory!!

That 'trick' is especially useful if you didn't get an explorer from a hut before founding the capital and wanderered your second settler as an explorer. By the time you realize you should have plopped the second city already, the settler has gone so far as to have corruption problems if you found where standing. Using the 'trick' gets you a second city close by while the wanderer comes back to found nearer the capital.

I usually do not wander the second so long, wanting to get the first two cities down quickly...more arrows means faster to Monarchy. But it happened in a game where three or four huts where tipped in succession, none of them producing a NON unit.

Monk

	25-01-2003 21:08									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

if you manage the 100$ its wise to choose bronze or horse as a tech ASAP, this often will allow you to build to sets out of the cap so in effect you have four ciites down. i have been lucky finding a couple of 50G huts plus a 25g while snagging HR as my first tech and i managed to pump two sets before size 2.....though your caps growth stagnates a touch, it is a wise move if you interested in pumping ciites.....after that , its a unit , temple and either start a wonder or build more units

	26-01-2003 12:58									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits With only one city you may rush build a settler before the capital has reached size 2. This allows a quick third city or the chance to "b" the extra settler back into the capital as soon as it reaches size 2. SG(2)

What is the capital/settler trick?

Does the capital not disband? Or is there some other aspect to the trick?

RJM at Sleepers

	26-01-2003 14:23									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

RJM at Sleepers,
If you have only one your city then it don't disband when producing a settler (even if 1-sized).

	26-01-2003 15:18									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That simply put is the whole trick - your capital whilst your only city is immune to disbanding - so high food, high shield foundings can pump out a 'free' settler when you have a bit of cash for rushing and the right techs to provide the steps - the second free settler is a great rarity - would normally only be seen at 2X production.

SG[1]

	27-01-2003 01:57									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ...so high food, high shield foundings can pump out a 'free' settler

maybe low food, high shield ?

	27-01-2003 02:17									#24
	Support Apolyton

It's been a while since I used this trick, but IIRC, the Settlers are supported by the Capital. So, yes, high food.

The free part is the Capital is not disbanded. Not that the Settlers are NON. Again, this is if my memory hasn't bonked again.

Monk

	27-01-2003 03:00									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, the settlers are not NON.

	27-01-2003 03:13									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk It's been a while since I used this trick, but IIRC, the Settlers are supported by the Capital. So, yes, high food. The free part is the Capital is not disbanded. Not that the Settlers are NON. Again, this is if my memory hasn't bonked again. Monk

Yes, the settler is supported by the city. So its really hard to have more than 2 settlers, since you only get one free shield support, and its rare to have more than 2 spare food to work with that early in the game, not to mention, if you're rush buying to get there, you need a lot of gold too (huts? nearby civs?)

The other main advantage of building settlers before you grow to 2 or found another city is that you don't lose the food stored so far.

	27-01-2003 03:26									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Yeah, the settlers are not NON.

I started a game, gave myself 10k gold and rushbought settlers each turn and took a picture

	27-01-2003 09:06									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

@SCG - Given the food shortage, won't the second Settler disappear next turn?

If not, that could be handy.

	27-01-2003 14:23									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The settler wont disband whilst there is food in the food box.

But in reality you'd only use the trick once in 1x1x anyway.

	27-01-2003 15:55									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Nice demo Doc.

SG[1]