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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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I took the liberty of talking to Jon Miller about the Mysticism trade deal. We got talking about some other stuff, too.
First, they have only 3 or 4 beakers per turn. This means that they will have Mysticism in about 10 turns. They are prepared to research Polytheism after that.
Second, they have two cities now.
Third, they feel they are being threatened by Gathering Storm, who have had 3 cities for quite some time. They are building up military defense. They do not guard their home cities.
Fourth, they are backwards in tech - they do not have Alphabet or Warrior Code yet.
I got a strange idea: to give them a tech (say, Alphabet) for the temporary control of a small city near GS's borders. Then we would gain contact with GS and be able to make trade deals with them. Vox knows which techs GS has. The advantage for Vox would be, except the free tech, that GS will feel they have 2 Civs to fight against if they attack Vox.
Jon Miller responded that he will discuss this with his people. Also, they would like to act like middle men for trading between us and GS: we would trade a tech to Vox, who would trade it to GS, and vice versa. In the meantime, they would be researching a 3rd tech, of course. I responded positively because all the tech we can get from this continent is a bonus compared to the civs on our continent. Vox will discuss the plan, and get back to us on it. Since they will profit the most, I think they will agree. If GS has no contacts with other civs, I can see them agree, too, but we must find out about this.
A minor problem might be that Vox would need both Alphabet and Writing to start this up, but they are willing to buy these techs from us.
I agreed to put Alphabet on the trade table. They will try to put enough gold on it and we can see if we think it is enough. If not, we just refuse.
Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 24-01-2003 at 03:30
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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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This is what I intend to send. Trip, and others, have a look at it please. We do not want to waste too much time on it!
quote:
Hello BetaHound!
I'm not at work anymore, so I have a bit more time to reply to you.
I will not take your Avatar as offensive or dangerous. On the contrary - I think it is very nice. Send my greetings to your wife.
To business: I have discussed both plans with my President, Trip, and some of our Ministers and team members.
First, let me state that there are 3 options here, besides the IronWorking-Mysticism deal we already have. They are:
1) We give you Alphabet for 15 gold plus 1 gold per turn, and that's it.
2) We give you Alphabet for 15 gold plus 1 gold per turn, and Writing for something else - we don't know what yet. This will open up more trade options. You contact GS and we work out a tech researching plan, in which GS and Lux trade techs with Vox acting as Middle Men. This is quite complicated, and needs the co-operation of GS.
3) We give you Alphabet for the possession of a small city near GS for 3 turns max. We will give it back to you afterwards, after we have made contact with GS in this way. We will then have GS as a trade partner, and will make sure that you will not fall behind GS too much in techs (we might donate techs we got from GS to you).
As I said, we discussed all plans. Let me just say first that we want to keep you as friends and strategic trading partners. It will give us an advantage over our close neighbours.
My people feel that we have come a great way towards you by giving you Iron Working in advance, while you will not have Mysticism for us for over 20 turns. This is a calculated risk, but you have profited a great deal from this. Also, we traded Pottery to you for a small amount.
Considering this, we cannot carry out plan 1. The gold is just not enough to compensate for our tech research.
We had a lot of discussion on plan 2. The problem is here that to open up trade options, we must get you both Alphabet and Writing. This is quite a lot considering the fact that you will not have any gold for it if you continue to research Mysticism, which is our priority. Also, we need to get GS's co-operation AND we must get them to research the exact techs we want. My people feel that this is just one bridge too far.
I have been congratulated on the ingenuity of plan 3. It is a move that no other civ will expect. GS will rub their eyes because they think that we are far away on our own island. They will know that Vox and Lux put a great deal of trust into each other and will think twice before considering attacking you. You will also have one free tech which is a big bonus considering your slow research speed. We will make sure that tech we trade with GS will come your way, too, because it is in our interest that you also reseach tech that is useful to us. Every tech we can get from your island is
an advantage over the other civs on our island! We will need to work out details - which city to switch, for how long and if units will be involved.
I hope you can see our reasoning here. Let me know what your people think.
Yours,
BigFurryMonster
Minister of Trade and Creative Plans of Lux Invicta
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(edit: removed typo and hard returns)
Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 24-01-2003 at 23:24
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CiverDan
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I like the "temporary city trade for contact idea". Just one possible problem. This will require coordination to make sure GS can touch the cultural border of the city before we have to give it back. Also, After contact. The city we give back to them will be undefended right? And GS will have a unit very close to the city (used to make contact). Given how agitated Vox is with GS, how can we make them believe that GS wont try to grabs the then undefended city...
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BigFurryMonster
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EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:25
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BetaHound replied:
quote:
...
In the meantime - one new piece of info, one question, one point I wish to make, and one point to ponder (and on this one - please take a couple days to let it percolate).
1) info - it looks like we can improve upon our research rate - the exact time to be determined shortly.
2) question - under option 3 - how about the possible option of us trading two cities - one of ours to give you contact with GS, and one of yours to give us contact with Neu D? Plus the Alphabet. And some gold the other way. And yes - we agree - the idea has incredible ingenuity!
3) a point I would like to make - I understand your reluctance on option 1, and readily admit that the arrangement to date has been somewhat one-sided, but we see this as a co-operative and long-term arrangment. There may come a time when we have a resource you need, and nothing to pay in return. We will provide it. There may come a time when our research is ahead of yours, and the tables are tilted the other way. We will provide the techs. There may be a time when we need each other's military assistance, etc etc. If we try to keep track of debits and credits over different items and over hundreds, nay, thousands of years, it will become near impossible to manage.
4) a point to ponder - we trust Lux. We do not have the same relationship with GS. In fact- I would go so far as to say we that we don't trust them. That may change with time. But for now, why should we, or you, knowing that we don't trust them, be so eager to engage them in a joint trading arrangement? I concur that we would all grow quickly in techs. And I see the advantage from your perspective - the two civs who are advancing with you at this quick rate are both on a separate continent, which would give you a clear advantage over your neighbours, Neu D on your continent. But what does it do for us? Other than strengthen relative to us - a civ that we do not trust. I hope you see my point.
While still on number 4, I can possibly see a longer-term situation, when trust is reached bewteen GS and Vox, where all 3 nations enter into an 'eastern alliance' of some sort - with the rest of the world as our - er hunting grounds. But you would have the first and most readily available spoils. It would require a feat of diplomacy to keep the alliance balanced. It could be done - but, each may feel insecure - and with the early tensions between GS and ourselves, and our position in between you and GS, us maybe more than you.
Hmmmm... food for thought.
Will get back to you as soon as I can.
Cheers! BetaHound
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CiverDan
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And everyone else on our continent too. Even if GoW and RP don't have a unit there, ND can just sell the contact, which we dont want. They would clearly gain more from borrowing our city them we would from borrowing their. Also, do WE want to take the risk the risk that ND wont attack it, given it can reach it from their city in 2 turns max.
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CiverDan
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My point was that even if they wouldn't get contact with GoW and RP immediately they would fairly soon as enough people will have writing after not too long. Which would soon completely negate the advantage in number of contacts that we currently have. Is it worth it for us to essentially give contacts to GS and Vox to everyone else on our continent in exchange for us to contact GS?? I don't think so. At least not unless Vox can often more..which they can't.
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WarriorPoet
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Good point civerdan, it would be better for us to try and get more profit out of an exchange of communications.
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Zero
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Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFurryMonster
OK - we will have Writing soon, and can then negociate with Vox about Communications with the StormGatherers. |
why dont we drop the issue, and find GS on our own? GS contact isnt worth much when we know where they are. We just need to hold on till mapmaking. We can effectively disable Vox from demanding contact from our neighbor this way as well.
if we want contact with gs earlier, we need to give them techs NOT contacts. We want monopoly in all contacts. But vox could use some tecgs so that we can open up their tech tree possibility. Its limited as it is to work around tech buddying program...
I wasnt here the couple of days and I should have been here to emphasize some points. BFM your intentions were pure in that you sought maximum possibilities for our nation to grow by trading w/ Vox, but your initial proposal would have never passed and would have just brought out unwanted ideas (like Vox asking for NDE contact). The problem is that vox and GS are arch rivals. Even then, they would loathe the idea of losing monoply of flow of information coming from Luxia. So I am now gonna send a PM to beta trying to repair the whole situation. We dont want this talk escalting anymore. Lets hush the whole contact trade please...
Last edited by Zero on 27-01-2003 at 00:19
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Zero
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Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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Damage has been done. We most likely wont trade alphabet for communication with GS if Vox has any idea how to play... Thats an extremly bad deal.
Its already a bit screwed. Im just gonna tell them later that the deal isnt possible cause we require writing. And delay the whole idea. If this goes any further, there just gonna be disappointment for both sides. No need to pursue this deal for now.
quote:
Why not search for GS ourselves? Because that takes resources. We need to get MapMaking, we need to get a city on the coast, we need to get a boat, and GS needs to be on the coast somewhere.
It is not bad to donate Alphabet to Vox. We need them to counter-balance GS a bit, because I think they are doing very well.
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I apologize for sounding too arrogant, but I think I understand the situation with the Vox-GS conflict far better. I had time to chat w/ beta (which i posted btw) and situations are not toward GS. Gs certainly had the upperhand and Vox survived barely with a combination of lil bluff and help from the mountainous terrain, but the balance is toward the Vox side thanks to our intervention. They dont get swordsmen, they get immortals. And war chariots are not a serious threat to them. Reason being why Vox loves us so much is for this too. We were their savior  .
If for any reason we need to contact GS, we need to do so in order to save GS, not Vox.
Donating Alphabet is a greta idea, but the fact is if Vox have any smart advisors they will object to the idea of getting a free tech for possibility of stregthening their enemies. I mean they are a civ that wont even trade with GS even if they offered them something.
We dont need a city or harbor. It takes a land unit, a galley and mapmaking in order to make contact. Thats not too bad considering the options we have in order to get contact w/ GS. Beside we will be building a galley for exploration purpose i hope... its not too much to ask for. And to add to that we know the exact location of GS (vox told us they are south from us)... its such a waste to give them something we wouldnt want to give them just to get contact sooner.
Last edited by Zero on 27-01-2003 at 01:15
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24-01-2003 03:20
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