24-01-2003 20:11									#31
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever ever notice that weaker players do better with it.....yes the skilled guys don't need it to be competitive..its about creating balance....

i agree that it can help out weaker players, but don't see how raising the cost would help. It would just take that much longer for players like me to build it. We'd fall behind that much faster.

	24-01-2003 21:35									#32
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the beauty of discussion.....everyone has an opinion and its nice to see which angels people use to make their judgements..

i thought it might be a nice change to spice things up a bit.....but if we want to play the same game again...thats fine too....*sigh*

	24-01-2003 21:37									#33
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Don't be so despondent....didn't you notice me agreeing with you?

	24-01-2003 21:45									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ming As far as GW goes... I don't see why we don't allow it in 3 or 4 persons games. I can see why it kind of sucks in a duel, but I have no problem with it in larger games.

i agree, it's one of the few wonders i was allowed to build and therefore must not be a huge advantage to its builder

	24-01-2003 22:10									#35
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In a 4 player game, If you get pinned in and are totally surrounded by the other players, GW could keep you in the game. Again, I can see why it shouldn't be allowed in a duel... but in a bigger game... we should go back to allowing it.

	24-01-2003 22:33									#36
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I see more and more "No city bribe", with "no GW" automatically included.
To me, it's 2 different points of contention.

	24-01-2003 22:36									#37
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I would agree... they are two very different points.

One forces you to TAKE the city through military means, and the other makes it difficult to do so

	24-01-2003 23:49									#38
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I'm asking because obviously I don't know, but if one has the GW, is it not possible to destroy the wall?
Would it rejuvenate itself, but only at next turn?
If so, couldn't one destroy the wall with a dip, with forces at the ready?

	24-01-2003 23:54									#39
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If you have GW, diplos can't "take down the wall"...

Now, if you have GW and the city has built a City Wall, you can destroy the wall with diplos, but the City will still have City Walls via the Wonder.

	25-01-2003 01:09									#40
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The point of making the 2 stipulations together is precisely in the factor you were unsure of Slow. With GW it is natural to allow city bribe, since otherwise you are just left with racing to the tech that makes it obselete.

	25-01-2003 01:15									#41
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Or you could just play King and then no wonder would be overpowering. But that might mean then you would have to fight sooner and then you probably wouldn't be able to keep up with better players.

	25-01-2003 01:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike The point of making the 2 stipulations together is precisely in the factor you were unsure of Slow. With GW it is natural to allow city bribe, since otherwise you are just left with racing to the tech that makes it obselete.

Ok. So my assertion that the two should not be combined was correct, and my question on GW was answered by Ming. Thanks.

And Hi Sunshine. Good to see you. Your mother, Boann, has been worried about you.

	25-01-2003 01:25									#43
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Gee, been busy at work, and missed this whole discussion. *sigh* So if this sounds stale, DEAL with it.

It does cost you expansion if you build it early. A little later, it's a game of chicken and adds some spice guessing if someone will build it the second you start researching pottery.

I don't plan to have it, but if it falls into my lap, I'll build it.

It probably should cost 300 since it is that valuable, but I really don't want to have to argue the value/cost of every wonder in the game. But taken seperately, it's easy to make the case.

War brings it up because he usually doesn't get it. So it's kind of similar to Eye's telling us our setting suck because his stratagy is taylored for the setting he prefers so there's no reason anybody else should have an advantage. (mostly kidding on this one)

On the GW, I wouldn't have a problem reinstating it if we played more than one session games. In one session this one's a much bigger crutch than HG. But I'm always willing to listen and contribute to the discussion.

RAH

	25-01-2003 01:27									#44
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Oh sure. Early on, instant walls are fairly fastastic.

	25-01-2003 01:28									#45
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ok. So my assertion that the two should not be combined was correct, and my question on GW was answered by Ming. Thanks.

Uh, no. Since we have established that it is natural to allow city bribe when GW is allowed, and many players do not like city bribe, this leads by extension of logic to them not wanting to play with GW allowed. Simple really.

	25-01-2003 01:32									#46
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I also believe they should be judged seperately. But that's just my opinion. In our group, we never made that "natural" connection.

RAH

	25-01-2003 01:44									#47
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Spikey :What I'm saying is, with what you AND Ming said , is that No Bribe, coupled with GW, makes a city almost untakeable, or at least to the point of being ridiculous.

	25-01-2003 02:22									#48
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Ah ok......I thought you were being stubborn.

	25-01-2003 02:30									#49
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God, even at 300 shields, i am not going to race for HG.... the point is , it should cost way more for what it does.....it has the biggest effect on the game in the expansion stage which is all we play these days anyways....

lighthouse can be countered by a barracks to produce vet boats....pyramids IMO is overpowered for one night stand games as well

and colossus, sure its nice, that size four city produces four extra trade arrows, collosus is only usefull with a SSC and a city that is larger like size 8 and up
but i can live with this costing 200 shields too

IMO bring back GW, and make both pyramids and HG cost 300 shields a piece, i think i would be happier with that

	25-01-2003 02:43									#50
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vet ships from barracks??????

	25-01-2003 02:47									#51
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever lighthouse can be countered by a barracks to produce vet boats....

Uhhhh... Barracks don't produce vet boats

	25-01-2003 03:10									#52
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GW is nice for lesser players to hang around the game...

But when a great player piles GW on HG, then there is SEVERE trouble.

If you want to add spice to our one night stands, I'll give you spice:

Bring some of the wonders from the late game into the early ages.

Examples: Cure for Cancer comes with Currency, Hoover Dam comes with Construction, Statue of Liberty comes with Monarchy. (You can rename them of course)

This would give people a little more power early to choose which wonder they wanted, and to bring some new strategies to the game. One person COULDN'T dominate the wonder building that early, only because you couldn't possibly build them all.

Just a rough draft, so you can poke fun at me now.

	25-01-2003 03:19									#53
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I'm sure we could have a long an interesting discussion on wonders and their value

We've been trying to avoid making many changes to the game files. The only real change has been oracle. I hate having to change them back if I'm playing somebody else

	25-01-2003 03:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Uhhhh... Barracks don't produce vet boats

FCUK I HAVE SNIFFED SOME GLUE AT WORK.......SORRY THAT WAS BONEHEADED OF ME....

ANYWAYS....NM MY SUGGESTIONS...I WILL JUST PLAY THE DAMM GAME THE WAY ITS SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED....

	25-01-2003 04:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by rah vet ships from barracks??????

PERHAPS THAT WAS THE GLUE I MENTIONED, THE LIQUID PAPER, OR THE BEERS I HAD AT LUNCH...

EITHER WAY FIGURES YOU GUYS WOULD PICK UP ON THAT BUT NOT ON THE IMPORTANT PART OF THE SENTENCE.

PYRAMIDS AND hg....300 SHIELDS EACH....

LIGHTHOUSE IN OUR GAMES, PAH DON'T NEED IT, BUILD A SHIP, SMASH ANOTHER ONE, OR PICK OFF A UNIT, NOT A CARAVAN THOUGH AND POOF, HOPE FOR A VET

	25-01-2003 04:22									#56
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You bet that we are going to "pick" on you when you make stupid statements like that one.

Just more proof that maybe you shouldn't drink at lunch

	25-01-2003 04:24									#57
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If War does not want to be picked on why does he post in CAPS ?

Last edited by Hydey on 25-01-2003 at 04:37

	25-01-2003 04:35									#58
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Remember... I think it's that drinking at lunch thing

	25-01-2003 04:52									#59
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nah i use caps lock at work, and forget when i come here to post when i should be working

i still like my pyramids and hg idea.....its sound, and appropriate for x2 production

	25-01-2003 04:57									#60
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While I hate making another change to the rules files, I really wouldn't have a problem with that if most people agreed.