03-02-2003 21:30									#121
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You guys are talking about completely different games. on a 32x32 double production game early attacking is a viable option.

It does not work in a medium sized map in x1 production. It does not work. I've tried it. A multi session game with single production and larger map is completely different to a single session 32x32 game.

Sure you may take out one civ however the other two have raced way ahead of you.

Ming I put it to you that you have played very few mp x1 games in comparison to AH. Back when I played with you guys we played x2 and that was right when the game came out.

	03-02-2003 22:10									#122
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Gotta agree mostly with Makeo. Yes, that early in 1x games it's hard to field and army. Heck by 3000 you're probably still only have two cities. Hard to support an army. By 2000, it's good to have 6 down. And they're still so small you're having problems supporting the martial law units let alone a standing attack force. (unless you got lucky with non-units from huts)

But while Ming may be off a bit on when the offensive can start, he still makes a good point that if you start before your oponent with that in mind, they probably won't be ready to defend against a horde of legions.
But it's not going to happen as soon as Ming suggests. And this is assuming that your closest neighbor is close enough to have some fun with.

	04-02-2003 00:46									#123
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Yeah that legion attack force is a good idea if you can get it early.

	04-02-2003 02:23									#124
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in x2 the legion rush can be viable if you get them real early..if not, better wait for pults and march 2 by 2 and stay on high terrain in case he has pults for defence too which these days seems to be the way to go haha.

its virtually impossible to make a decent legion rush in x1 games on a map any bigger than small UNLESS you start REAL close to a neighbor...

plus in x1 games its a land grab rush that happens far longer b/c of the extra terriotry out there...

IMO legions are a waste unless under 1 set of criteria.... there are far better units to use , though perhaps taking a legion for def/off with your pults and pike would be smart, but one legion is one less pult and two less pike...so do the math....its not really viable

	04-02-2003 03:18									#125
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If you get warrior code early (usually from a hut, since there is a high probablity of that) legions are only one science away, and come far earlier than cats, and can defend themselves in the field. Yeah... if you don't know where your opponents are, or they are too far away, it doesn't make sense. But even on medium size worlds, if you are playing with four players, somebody will be close.

Legions are excellent weapons of terror. Most of us have seen what a legion barbarian from a hut can do to your "priorities" if it is near your cities... Multiple Legions can do serious damage.

Yes, they come later in 1x production games, but so does everything else. It's all relative. Since you can get them so quick, there is a window of opportunity where they can be devistating, no matter what settings you play. And even when slightly better technology comes, they still stay effective and useful.

The legion is a vastly under rated unit

	04-02-2003 03:32									#126
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I agree, though it takes something like free WC to make me go legions.....I wouldn't beeline for them without a little push.

	04-02-2003 03:39									#127
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Yeah... I wouldn't go into any game thinking that was going to be my strategy. But when you get WC early, and it throws you off the path, ironworks isn't that much of a killer to take. If you are behind and had a terrible start, it's not a bad way to have some fun as well... Your choice is to sit back and stay a few steps behind your opponents, trying your best to catch up even though its more than likely a lost cause, or, you can out and take from them what you need to catch up while doing serious damage to their lead. A lot more fun

	04-02-2003 04:14									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Makeo You guys are talking about completely different games. on a 32x32 double production game early attacking is a viable option. It does not work in a medium sized map in x1 production. It does not work. I've tried it. A multi session game with single production and larger map is completely different to a single session 32x32 game. Sure you may take out one civ however the other two have raced way ahead of you. Ming I put it to you that you have played very few mp x1 games in comparison to AH. Back when I played with you guys we played x2 and that was right when the game came out.

What I say?

You can do what Ming says but mostly only becomes viable in 1x early AD, by which time you've got decent established cities, have completed early research goals and have had time to build the troopies. By this stage legions don't cut the mustard against good players.

But then you run into the problem I mentioned earlier that whilst you're clobbering one player the other 2 or 3 are leaping away in economic development and of course mil techs. Its very hard to win a war quickly against more than one opponent.

So we tend to sit back and prepare for late game wars. And those are big wars!!!!!!!!!!!

	04-02-2003 04:18									#129
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If you kill your opponents early, there won't be any big war's later to wait around for

And yes, if you strike quickly, legions are very effective, and will dice up the "good players"

	04-02-2003 04:33									#130
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Obviously your defnition of good players and mine are two different things.

	04-02-2003 04:37									#131
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That's right - our definition of a good player doesn't involve 2 computers.

	04-02-2003 06:18									#132
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actually its still more than one tech, you need bronze working too.......and when your on the path to monarchy, your not likely to pick up Iron Working before that...so in reality its a few techs of the pace even in the early game.

simply put, in x1 not likely and in x2 there is a better chance of it happening...

	04-02-2003 09:39									#133
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In 1x you get caught up with the tech and demog race . Its hard to break out of that.

	04-02-2003 09:41									#134
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever actually its still more than one tech, you need bronze working too.......and when your on the path to monarchy, your not likely to pick up Iron Working before that...

Uhhh... I said "When you get WC from a hut and it takes you OFF the path of Monarchy"

	04-02-2003 09:45									#135
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interestingly I've got WC in 3 games in a row and then got monarchy next choice.

	04-02-2003 09:53									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Uhhh... I said "When you get WC from a hut and it takes you OFF the path of Monarchy"

yeah, i understand what your saying, i just doubt you would take iron working as your next tech whether you had mon or not its not a great tech to take as it takes you further off your path, against the ai is one thing, but not often does it work against humans..

and the barb legion, duh its a b1tch...when you only have warriors for defence haha....
'

Ming i am not saying it wont work, i am saying its not likely to work very often thats all

	04-02-2003 10:08									#137
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Fortify warriors on high defence points in its path.

	04-02-2003 10:24									#138
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I agree war... I've only done it a few times, but it does work. Everytime I've done it, it was because I was already working on bronze when I got WC, and it didn't let me take Monarchy after code. In all cases, I was falling farther and farther behind... and since I had production and only moderate trade... and a close by neighboor... why not It was more fun that falling even farther behind... or quiting

	04-02-2003 10:29									#139
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So in other words its not a viable strategy as you earlier claimed but an act of desperation

	04-02-2003 10:38									#140
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Oh... it is a viable strategy. As I said before, it's not something I go into a game saying... I'm GOING TO DO THIS. But, you have to play the cards you are dealt... and it's a great way to play when things don't go according to the typical plan. You have to play the situations you are dealt. And vet legions marching down on your enemy will be VERY effective I only hope that my neighboor has built some good wonders

	04-02-2003 10:41									#141
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What if your neighbour is usually makeo?

	04-02-2003 10:53									#142
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Then it would be even more fun

	04-02-2003 10:55									#143
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What? dying?

	04-02-2003 10:58									#144
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No... killing

	04-02-2003 12:37									#145
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haha....agreed, there is nothing better than two armies converging on each others territory, especially when they show up outside the others cities at the same time can you say panic

	12-02-2003 18:09									#146
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I've build HG in about 5% of my games and I certainly have fair share of wins.

	16-02-2003 15:19									#147
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It really isn't needed to win.. It's nice, but not a must have.

	16-02-2003 16:57									#148
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What about duels though.........I think the case is stronger there.

	17-02-2003 01:36									#149
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for a duel HG will give that player a huge advantage, especially if your not using an extended oracle....

at some point you need a happy wonder or you need a huge amount of infastructure

HG is just huge in duels especially since its so cheap