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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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Ghengis...  You KNOW how hollow that is 
C'mon... I owe my victory in at least one election (for FAM) to the DIA, as do a few other candidates. While many in this nation stood against signing agreements such as alliances and MPPs with the AI under any conditions, the DIA and myself proposed bills, argued for them, and got them passed calling for MPPs and alliances rather than suicidally flinging ourselves into war without friends as the Hawks suggested. 
The space race issue is an issue we have not budged on and have remained the only party resolutely behind... and will remain so in the future. Despite attempts by certain people to convince the nation in favor of domination, they have failed... the nation supports the space race .
While the ALP has been TALKING about the abolition of slavery, it is the DIA that has been PUTTING FORWARD PLANS for the abolition of slavery, vetoing pro-slavery senate bills, and passing bills that encourage our own elected Domestic Minister to institute abolition plans in the future, but with respect for other national interests.
The ALP, despite now controlling the Presidency, remains on the sidelines of the real issues. The DIA, which no longer controls the Presidency, remains at the forefront of the major issues confronting the nation. We actually stand for something, namely the space race at this point.
You can taunt if you want to, but the do-nothing ALP hasn't done jack for any of their own issues (other than getting their people elected )... they haven't actively done anything about slavery, their party chairman has drafted military units directly against his OWN party platform, and they don't have much else on their platform (though if they did, I expect the party chairmain might violate those too  )
So, Ghengis... you can stuff it 
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Meshelic
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Bringer of Peace, Destroyer of Worlds
Sep 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
The ALP, despite now controlling the Presidency,
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....and the military....and the foreign office....and most of the Regional Administration.....well, okay, not most but you get my drift (unless you're an idiot)
to put it blatently, Labor IS the government right now, aside from joncnunn and a slight majority of RA's.
If anything, since Labor has been founded we've followed our charter (which of course I admit, is a little bland but that's my own fault for not being a die-hard politician like you), which CLEARLY states that it's #1 issue was to ENCOURAGE INVOLVEMENT in the demo game, ESPECIALLY at a time when the numbers were quickly dying off and people were beginning to lose any interest at all. That goal has been accomplished, and you may thank the ALP for it's part in that.
quote:
You can taunt if you want to, but the do-nothing ALP hasn't done jack for any of their own issues (other than getting their people elected )... they haven't actively done anything about slavery, |
Hmmm you mean anything beyond vote in polls and post our support in the threads? What more do you want Arnelos? Really...?
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their party chairman has drafted military units directly against his OWN party platform,
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Pffft. Whatever Arnelos, you KNOW that isn't true. That's just low. Read the chat log, it's in there. First, I haven't drafted any units at ALL. Second, I've opposed it even when my own fellow ALP members thought it would be advantageous.
quote:
and they don't have much else on their platform (though if they did, I expect the party chairmain might violate those too )
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Well think of how long the ALP has been around.... What, a month/month-and-a-half? You expect us to suddenly have a charter as lengthy and boring as your own? You expect our membership to be as large as yours? When we've only been around for such a short time, compared to the DIA who has been around since the very beginning? Quite a standard you hold everyone to Arnelos....
If you had a [rp] in front of your statements I wouldn't take it quite as personally (although I hardly take this personally anyways), but you're resorting to some low tactics, a reknown trait for the DIA. Don't attack the ALP just because you get riled by Ghengis's jests.
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Meshelic
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Bringer of Peace, Destroyer of Worlds
Sep 2002
time: 21:25
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Concerning the draft - Actually I had no idea that had happened, (if it did at all?). It was not in my orders, and you will find that in the chat log I explicitly said that conscripts were totally unnecessary and that my plan, FORTRESS UBER, was perfectly capable of being implemented in full strength without the help of the draft.
If Panzer32 wishes to draft a citizen in his cities, is it not his right? I did not ask for it.
Last edited by Meshelic on 26-01-2003 at 05:19
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
Ghengis... You KNOW how hollow that is
C'mon... I owe my victory in at least one election (for FAM) to the DIA, as do a few other candidates. While many in this nation stood against signing agreements such as alliances and MPPs with the AI under any conditions, the DIA and myself proposed bills, argued for them, and got them passed calling for MPPs and alliances rather than suicidally flinging ourselves into war without friends as the Hawks suggested.
The space race issue is an issue we have not budged on and have remained the only party resolutely behind... and will remain so in the future. Despite attempts by certain people to convince the nation in favor of domination, they have failed... the nation supports the space race .
While the ALP has been TALKING about the abolition of slavery, it is the DIA that has been PUTTING FORWARD PLANS for the abolition of slavery, vetoing pro-slavery senate bills, and passing bills that encourage our own elected Domestic Minister to institute abolition plans in the future, but with respect for other national interests.
The ALP, despite now controlling the Presidency, remains on the sidelines of the real issues. The DIA, which no longer controls the Presidency, remains at the forefront of the major issues confronting the nation. We actually stand for something, namely the space race at this point.
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Yay, you're absolutely right, my arguments have been more and more unsubstatiated. Mainly, because when I brought up reasonable arguments the DIA stood silent. When I went a bit out there the DIA stood silent. I finally had to resort to extreme exaggeration to get anyone to speak up.
Now the question is, why? Are the DIA's leaders simply slow? Did it take this long for them to find speech writers to write their posts for them as they have no idea what any of these issues are? Are do they simply not care about any of the issues they bring up?
On a completely different note, it amazes me how identical our DIA is to America's Democratic Party.
Both are the largest political parties in their nations.
Both are the oldest parties in their nations.
Both claim to represent business when they actually support people's rights over business.
And both are very anti-military.
Its very interesting.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
On a completely different note, it amazes me how identical our DIA is to America's Democratic Party.
Both are the largest political parties in their nations.
Both are the oldest parties in their nations.
Both claim to represent business when they actually support people's rights over business.
And both are very anti-military.
Its very interesting. |
Just so you or anyone else knows in the event that anyone didn't hear this one already... I'm a political worker for the Republican Party in RL
and despite being somewhat of a centrist, I don't quite qualify for the club for growth's RINO (Republic in name only) description
However, I have a healthy respect for the Democratic Party. They might currently be leaderless, directionless, obsessed with public office over their own principles, and generally deplorable for exploiting and ignoring some of their own constituency groups (African-Americans at the top of that list, who they treat poorly and take for granted), but the history of their party suggests that they will eventually find leadership, direction, and sense of principles again in the future. I honestly believe American politics (or the democratic politics of any country) is at its healthiest when both left and right are capable of offering a reasonably clear and well-lead option for the voting public to choose. I also respect that many of the principles the Democrats' actually work to defend in their better moments are as much a part of the "American Creed" as those liberties the Republicans work to defend in our better moments.
I'm certainly something of a pro-business conservative in RL and I'm strongly in favor of the current administration's policy on Iraq. Ironicly, I and many others like me share the liberals' attachment to international law, the difference is that they don't seem to quite understand that laws are just ink on paper unless you enforce them (the reality is that the leftist politicians both in Europe and the U.S. do understand this, but they're too scared to ever display or follow this understanding ).
However... Apolyton is very different from RL. First, not everyone plays the part in Apolyton that they play in RL. I'm not  Second, political alignments here are... rather different... from those in RL. Just because a certain set of issues lines up as being "left-wing" or "right-wing" in any given RL country doesn't mean it has any correlation to such a scale in any other given political climate.
To use the ALP as an example, they have some issues that one might consider "left-wing" and others that one might consider "right-wing". The same goes for the DIA. The RL labels just don't work very well. We've assigned "left" and "right" labels in the past because it's convenient, but I think most understand that they mean different things here.
back to the subject and to Apolyton (rather than RL...)
The DIA is in favor of industrial and economic development. As the French economist Bastiat once said, "if goods don't cross borders, soldiers will". This truth is at the center of the DIA's pro-commerce and pro-business policy. It is centered on the idea that wealth is best accumulated when there's a minimum of strife, death, mayhem, crime, and general disorder. In Civ3, in order to promote the expansion of commerce and industry, resources must be expent. Such resources often must be expent at the EXPENSE of expending the same resources on military development and the conquest of new lands. Likewise, it is often the case that to expend resources on military development and conquest, one must leave their economy and industry underdeveloped.
The DIA has and very clearly and unambiguously stood for expending more resources on economic and industrial development than on militarism and conquest. While certain instances of war and conquest have been supported by the DIA because they are clearly in the national interest (such as our current war with Germany, which members of the DIA did much to help plan for and fight), many others the DIA has not because it felt that our economic and industrial development is seriously lacking and needs more attention.
Especially now with the war weariness of the population entering the equation, the DIA stands firmly for the principle that peace is needed. Once this war is complete, we will need an extended time to develop the various improvements of the Industrial Age throughout the cities of our now vast empire. Much of our empire still suffers from under-development. We need more marketplaces and banks, more courthouses and police stations, more aqueducts and hospitals, more libraries and universities.
If our goal is the space race, and the population has clearly shown that it is, then we desperately need to attend to these deficiencies in Apolyton's level of development. While the emphasis on war and conquest has certainly expanded the borders of our great nation, it has left our economic and industrial situation underdeveloped compared to its potential had we chosen even a slightly less warmongering path.
Especially now, it would be GREATLY beneficial to develop our industry and economy to their utmost before going back to war. The increased strength of our industry and the increased vitality of our economy would allow us to far better support a future war effort than our currently limited abilities. Because, as many understand and as Gladstone (man of my avatar ) once stated, "Here is my first principle of foreign policy: good government at home."
The DIA stands, simply, upon that principle and upon the principle that placing resources fully into domestic development can many times more greatly increase the wealth of a nation than in attempting to expand its borders. With our empire already being so enormous and our goal being the space race, this has never been more true than it is now.
We have little to gain from further conquests in terms of aiding our goal of reaching for the stars. The problem of German technological rivalry has already been vanquished and no replacement for the Germans has yet been found. It is time that we took this opportunity, the first in our nation's history, to soar above and beyond all others by concentrating on our situation here at home and reaching for the stars - for now none of them possess enough to stop us.
Victory is nearly within our grasp... we need only the will to grasp for it.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Meshelic
If Ghengis would accept my nomination, I'd like to see him act as a voice for the independents, who aren't actually a party but as he is a most outspoken critic of both parties, I believe he'd make a great candidate for such a job. I think Arnelos may agree with me as well, on that one....
Ghengis? What do you think...? |
Ghengis is always free to express his opinion, of course, but it would be a mistake to believe that he in any way represents the independent population... that would be a rather severe misunderstanding of the defintion of "independent"
It's also true that in a broader sense the independents are, politically speaking, all over the map. GhengisFarb could certainly represent himself and others of like mind, but they are comparatively few even compared to the full population of independents, nevermind the full population of the Demogame.
As I said, however, GhengisFarb is of course ALWAYS free to speak his mind (as though we could get him to shut up even if we wanted to ).
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24-01-2003 10:09
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