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jscott991
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I have been using this site to follow MOO3's agonizing progress toward gold and release but have never posted, but I simply could not avoid commenting on this thread.
Why is everyone thanking and congratulating the developers after this gold announcement? It boggles my mind that we should somehow be grateful to QS and IG for 1. Releasing the game at all 2. Releasing the game after missing numerous announced released dates 3. Possibly delaying the shipping of a gold product for nearly an entire month 4. Holding back release of a product because of multiplayer bugs.
If customers continue to behave like toadies to inept development houses and inconsiderate publishers, we will never receive on-time, quality products. Show some backbone!
Jeremy
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darcy
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"on-time" does not equal "quality".
It's common knowledge that all announced release dates are wishful thinking in this industry. I blame the fan(atic)s for making such a fuzz about a few weeks more or less. When will they finally stop believing in these carelessly announced dates?
We know nothing about the quality of the end product yet. The greatest danger is the dramatic design change that happened someway in the middle of the road, when QS suddenly discovered that MOO is not about a terrible mess of unimportant details. Did they have enough time to get back on track? We will see.
That said, customers don't need to be grateful at all; they pay, after all. However, this is not a customer site, but a fan site, so this attitude misses the mark slightly.
Last edited by darcy on 27-01-2003 at 22:32
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jscott991
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I just don't agree. Perhaps people are more forgiving than I am, but rather than wanting to congratulate them on finally completing a game that should already have been done, I am livid at the further delays in going from gold to shipping. If fans of the genre are going to be this tolerant, then we will never see improvement in these kinds of fiascos and, as we all know, these kind of situations are very common.
QS and IG shouldn't be thanked for finishing, they should be condemned for the delays. Only in the software industry are clients and customers so forgiving. I wish people in the legal industry were so naive.
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Rantz
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Southern CA
May 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
[SIZE=1] Only in the software industry are clients and customers so forgiving. I wish people in the legal industry were so naive. |
The music industry, Film... any form of commerce entertainment tends to have the same reaction.
I am reminded of the internet sequence in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back for some reason. Now, where's my movie check...
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jscott991
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It is extremely rare in the movie industry for a movie to have an announced date, then within a week or two of that date say "oh, sorry, we'll be coming out next year instead." In fact, outside of the September 11th situation, I can't remember it happening to a major release in my lifetime.
The entertainment software industry is unique and that's why its dying (if you doubt it is dying, you should read the interesting article on PC game releases on gonegold.com). You can't be anti-customer when most every other industry and business is striving to attract customers through better service.
Last edited by jscott991 on 29-01-2003 at 00:27
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Rantz
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Southern CA
May 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by jscott991
It is extremely rare in the movie industry for a movie to have an announced date, then within a week or two of that date say "oh, sorry, we'll be coming out next year instead." In fact, outside of the September 11th situation, I can't remember it happening to a major release in my lifetime. |
A week before no, but I cannot even begin to count the number of movies in production that become late or never see the light of day (Spiderman 15 years, latest superman, cancelled, superman vs batman, cancelled, etc, etc...)
And music is worse by far NIN ( a year and a half after announced date) Guns and Roses (4 dates missed and now *maybe* in 2003).
Like it or not, while entertainment is commerce, there is also a degree of craft and art in it, and that leads to unquantifiable delays. In the case of musicians, it can be writers block, in the case of software, it's deciding at the 11th hour to fix more bugs over release-and-patch.
Dying or not, they are still multi-billion dollar industries, and comparing them to a muffler shop or a hotel chain in terms of service and customer relations is apples and avacados. You can do it, but it don't make a lot of sense.
(Reminded even more now of the JaSBSB internet moment...)
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jscott991
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What a nice, flippant response from the kings of flippant responses. You can't help but hope that QS and IG continue to do well in the future with such wonderful people working for them.
There is a huge difference between movie rights being announced as bought but not seeing the light of day and software companies playing games with release dates. There was no substantive work on Spiderman until Raimi took the project over and once filming began, the movie was completed on time. Are you comparing MOO's problems since November with the 12 years that Spiderman simply existed as a concept in some producer's desk?
The fact is that software companies are unique in saying that a product is going to release on a certain date and then, very close to that date, pushing it back. Movies do not do that. Books do not do that. I am not a major consumer of CD's and other music, but I find it hard to believe that a CD is given a release date and then right before its supposed to be released they announce "oh, we wanted to put another song on it so its coming out next year" or even better "the song quality is slightly lower than expected so we're going to re-record one or two tracks and release it months later."
Conducting your business in a pro-consumer manner is not something that software companies should be immune to. They have increasingly become so, and that is why I think customers should be more outraged by it.
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Rantz
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Southern CA
May 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by jscott991
Movies do not do that.
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Case in Point, Knockaround guys. finished and announce 1 1/2 years ago, just released. Titanic, announced for a release 3 months before it actually did.
quote:
Books do not do that. |
Case in point Harry Potter. Or Donna Tartt's last book.
quote:
I am not a major consumer of CD's and other music, but I find it hard to believe that a CD is given a release date and then right before its supposed to be released they announce "oh, we wanted to put another song on it so its coming out next year" or even better "the song quality is slightly lower than expected so we're going to re-record one or two tracks and release it months later." |
Case in point Nine Inch Nails. The Fragile was scheduled for release one and a half years before it came out. If you went into Tower records they had it on the upcoming releases, along with a date. 1 month before release Trent decided to not release it saying he wasn't satisfied with it. And so on...
We're not pro consumer? hmmm ok, I haven't gone out of my way to answer questions that it is not my job to answer, to keep the fans informed within the limits of what I am allowed.
You can gripe about the Oct/Nov slip and if you think I'm at all happy about not making Thanksgiving vs. Christmas, you are dead wrong. Would we have been more pro-consumer if we released a game in Oct with the average number of bugs and needed tweaks that most games have these days? To me, that's being less respectful of the consumer and the fans, assuming they will put up with problems until the patch, rather than giving them the best.
You may disagree with me on that, but I'm not being flippant, I'm simply stating some facts to counter hyperbole.
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jscott991
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No, I won't disagree with you. I'll congratulate and thank you for finally releasing the game. As a gaming consumer, I should be happy to receive whatever crumbs IG and QS decide to throw at me.
And incidentally, I would love to see some facts that state that Titanic, the most expensive movie ever made, was supposed to release during the slowest movie watching period of the year, late August/early September.
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Rantz
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Southern CA
May 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by jscott991
And incidentally, I would love to see some facts that state that Titanic, the most expensive movie ever made, was supposed to release during the slowest movie watching period of the year, late August/early September. |
July. Not Aug or Sept. Poster for the July release were up in theatres, and had to be taken down.
Friend of mine worked on it. He (at the time) said 'you are SO lucky you are not working on this!' Reason for delay were problems that were unforseen with FX. The delay and cost increase (at the time) had everyone stating that cameron was done for in Hollywood, that he had bitten off more than he could chew, and that it would make waterworld seem like a success story.
Of course all of these trades (Variety, Hollywood Reporter, etc.) changed their tune when it came out and folks went by the boatload (pun intended) to see it.
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jscott991
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I do remember all the pre-release buzz about Titanic being mostly negative and comparing it to Waterworld, but I didn't remember that the movie was ever planned for a July release. I had always assumed that it was supposed to be an "Oscar" type release for the late fall, early winter part of the year. In a way Cameron is probably glad he did have all the problems with it, because as Moulin Rouge demonstrated, it is very hard for a summer movie to keep Academy voter interest and win awards.
Anyway, I stand corrected. I can only imagine that from a finacial standpoint, QS and IG are hoping that MOO3 mirrors Titanic.
To Seldon: The delays don't seem to over quite yet, since the release date remains the end of February. This and all the adoring fan letters on this board are why I am upset. The game probably will be great and it probably will be the best space strategy game since MOO1, but that is no reason for fans to forget everything that has happened and behave like bootlicks.
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viciouscycle
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Topeka (ancient American Indian term for "bubbling pit of hell")
Jan 2003
time: 23:25
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@jscott991:
Do you honestly expect any human endeavor to go completely as planned without any problems or complications? I think you are being unrealistic in your expectations and overly critical of QS/IG.
The big delay last year was because the developers determined that the game wasn't good enough and needed to be changed (IIRC). Would you rather have had QS/IG just say "screw it" and release the game or go back to overhaul the game to make it better? I said it before and I'll say it again that I think QS/IG showed some huge balls by not releasing the game as planned and going back to the drawing board. The amount of criticism this move has generated is enormous and, apparently, still going strong. Was it worth it? Is it really that much better now? Only the beta testers will know for sure because no one else would have had the opportunity to play both the original and the final production versions.
Yes, the delay is very frustrating but that's life. Things go wrong... people deal with it, learn, and move on.
I think it is unfair to compare the development of a computer game with the production of a movie, an album, or a book. Movies, albums, and books are one-way tickets... computer games are interactive. Huge difference. The QA/QC processes involved with software in general and computer games specifically are mountainous compared to those for movies, albums, and books.
I'm not saying MOO3 is a great game because I haven't played it yet. I don't think I'm jumping on any bandwagon here because I may end up hating the game in the end (hopefully not!). I was very excited by the development of Civ3 but after playing it a couple dozen times I finally had to say that I was disappointed.
From the beginning QS/IG wanted the fans to be well informed of the development of MOO3. QS/IG opened up to suggestions and made an effort to please the fans. Sounded great at the time, didn't it? Well, QS/IG have learned a lesson... no good deed goes unpunished.
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Hrett
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Houston, TX
Oct 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
[SIZE=1]
QS and IG shouldn't be thanked for finishing, they should be condemned for the delays. Only in the software industry are clients and customers so forgiving. I wish people in the legal industry were so naive. |
Have you never filed a motion for continuance, pushed a deadline, cancelled a deposition or hearing for one reason or other? I would bet you have. Things dont always go as planned. We all do it in all professions. QS and IG just have to deal with more unhappy clients than we lawyers do.
Condem them if you want, but be careful that you aren't calling the kettle black.
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Craig P.
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quote:
Originally posted by jscott991
I wish people in the legal industry were so naive. |
I tend to think that legal work doesn't have the same kind of issues that software work has.
I've done some software work where I didn't even know for sure if I could do it when I started and a certainly didn't know how long it would take. And then, I was convinced it was ready to go out the door, only to find that it hadn't been tested thoroughly enough and it needed another week of work. Some of my experience is inadequate project management and inadequate personnel, but it also reflects the inherent uncertainties in software development.
For sure, in comparison to legal work, it's a lot harder to tell when you'll be done. Legal work doesn't require you to have page 1 completely proofread and edited before you can even look for grammar/spelling and other problems on page 2.
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RealTimestopper
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Canada
Apr 2002
time: 05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Rantz
it can be writers block, |
Writer's block?
What's that?
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rantz
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Southern CA
May 2002
time: 05:25
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edit: screwed up and double posted...
Last edited by Rantz on 30-01-2003 at 00:08
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27-01-2003 22:08
along with playing other stuff single-player with spare time (I've gotten hooked on the PC version of Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind... it's a good distraction before MoO3 comes out).
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