25-01-2003 17:54									#31
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As best I can tell, barb galleys are produced by barb camps on the coast. At least I've noticed a strong correlation by which the galleys seem to appear not too long after the camps (albeit not in the earliest stages of the game).

	25-01-2003 18:08									#32
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The upcoming turn is 41, and this is the right thread for it.

Vox doesn't have Alphabet yet, so they can't have started Writing. The real problem is that if Vox reneges on the second phase of the tech trade and we research Writing before Iron Working, we give them a nice window of opportunity to attack before we get Iron Working and get an iron source hooked up. And if I were Vox, I don't think I'd renege on the tech trade unless it was part of a plan to attack; at least not without some sort of diplomatic effort to smooth things over. (Although it's possible that Vox is delaying because they don't have a handy source of iron; you don't suppose their worker's activities are aimed at hooking up a supply from the Spinebreakers, do you?)

Nathan

	25-01-2003 18:34									#33
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Writing; we just got Alphabet.

Sorry, that's what I meant to type.

This is difficult. I can think of a dozen different tricks that Vox can play on us to delay our research or to backstab us.

	25-01-2003 18:35									#34
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Interesting idea, iron in the Spinebreakers... that would explain a lot!

I know the timing isn't really good, but how long will writing and IW take us, 25 turns? If Vox is going to attack, and reach us in 25 turns, we can defend with WCs... I don't see a major force coming our way. Most likely, they don't have a barracks yet, and not enough cash to upgrade a decent immortal force... but of course, this can change quite rapidly.

DeepO

	25-01-2003 18:45									#35
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I hate the idea of having only WCs to defend with. For one thing, a lot of our potential city sites, including the prime site on the gold hill, can't be defended adequately with WCs. For another, Vox can get effective combat units both by building and by upgrading warriors, whereas we can get them only by building, and that would give them the best shot at competing with our production capacity that they'll ever get.

And remember that after we discover Iron Working, we still have to hook up an iron supply. That could easily give them another ten turns or more beyond when we finish researching Iron Working. (On the other hand, I think 25 turns for Writing+Iron Working is a bit high, especially considering the new cities we'll have coming online during that time.) Or if we get Iron Working and find out there's no iron around, we'll need another military tech to have forces capable of entering mountains or jungles.

Nathan

	25-01-2003 18:49									#36
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I've been watching Eli's slow units vs. fast units thread in the strat forum, and I'm getting the impression that they'll want to road deeper into our territory before they start sending down immortals.
Plus, keep in mind that they don't really know where exactly our cities are positioned, or how far south this island stretches. When they send an invasion force, it will most likely make a few wrong turns on the way.

Anyway, the point is - even with IW, we'll need iron. We most likely don't have iron yet, and we'll need to build another settler and send him to the nearest iron deposit - probably the spinebreakers.
WCs appear to be our best solution in case of an invasion. I suspect Vox knows that we stop researching whenever we finish a tech to wait for their answer, according to the power graph. They will most likely pull off the same trick that they tried last time in order to delay our research. We need to stop doing this and research writing, whether or not Vox replies by the time turn 41 arrives.

	25-01-2003 19:46									#37
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I checked the research costs Sir Ralph posted with Turn 39, and at our current income, we'd be looking at 14 turns for Writing and 10 for Iron Working. We'll have some additional income from extra cities and larger sizes in EotS and Hurricane by the time we're done, but we're still looking at at least 20 turns before we find out where iron is and get a chance to hook it up.

I don't feel at all comfortable with that against Persia and its immortals, especially given that iron is most likely to appear in areas where WCs would be next to useless for defense. What happens if we get caught where the only way we can expand much north of EotS and defend our cities is to fight using archers for control of a source of iron?

	26-01-2003 03:05									#38
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I say research writing, Vox's backstabe wont come for a little while, and eventually we'll trade IW with them, after explaining them what it means that they won't cooperate (and they seem to enjoy this state of temporary peace). They want to get they're road ready before attacking, and that would take time. And, if what we think about Vox's territory is true, then it would take them even longer to mount a serious offensive. In the meantime, we should take advantage of their (limited) willingness to cooperate and deal techs, we will need this in the future, when everyone will probably be dealing techs, and we won't have anyone to trade with (sniff, sniff :evilgrin- I say no to the (Voxian) delay, and yes for researching writing.

	26-01-2003 04:56									#39
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Message back from Vox. I'll post it in the ambassador's office and start work on a reply. It looks like they're having a hard time believing our research rate.

	26-01-2003 07:33									#40
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Turn arrived.

	26-01-2003 07:37									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sir Ralph, maybe best not to rush it...

DeepO

	26-01-2003 07:41									#42
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Tech trade declined, as we already know. I will offer it again and hope for our diplomats to send an appropriate note.

The barbarian went 7 and threatens the Voxian road builders. Shall I attack it or go for the camp, risking a veteran Voxian warrior?

	26-01-2003 07:43									#43
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Ok, I agree not to rush it, but in this case Nathan has to take over, I can't stay up forever. Either I play it now, or he plays it later and we discuss things a little. Although I won't participate for long, I'm getting tired.

	26-01-2003 07:47									#44
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I can play it, and we definitely need to come to a decision on whether to keep stockpiling gold (my favored option) or start researching again. I hate to hold up our research, but with how untrustworthy Vox now appears to be, I don't think we dare delay Iron Working to research Writing if Vox doesn't live up to their trade deal, and I have a lot fewer reservations about having a gold reserve for possible warrior upgrades than I might otherwise.

Nathan

	26-01-2003 07:55									#45
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My favored compromise would be to wait exactly one more turn with 100% taxes, offer Alphabet again and tell them, that if they don't fullfill their part and accept it immediately, the deal is void once and forever, and word of them being untrustworthy trade partners will reach the other civs as soon as contact is made.

	26-01-2003 07:57									#46
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Well... cash is never lost, of course, the only thing we can lose is the ability to outresearch the other teams, and thus trade possibilities in the long turn.

realistically, how long are we going to need to have IW in our hands, 2 turns from now? an extra 2 turns of cash maybe is too much... that's 3 in a row.

Re: barb: go for the camp, leave the barb alone... with a bit of luck, he'll pillage a road. Or Vox attacks them and loses. We won't gain anything by attacking him, looting the camp is more important right now.

DeepO

	26-01-2003 07:58									#47
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As for the barbarian: Both ways have their benefits, but perhaps it's wiser to attack the barbarian. It's chieftain, we have a big bonus and we could end with Grog being veteran and, after the camp, may be even elite.

	26-01-2003 07:59									#48
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I don't know about the tone of that message, SR. I agree on how you feel, but maybe it's no time yet to pressuring them. If they blow the deal, however, we do need to make it public.

DeepO

	26-01-2003 08:01									#49
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Sir Ralph, what are the odds to 2 promotions? 1 in 144? not good enough for me, I like the certain gold better.

DeepO

	26-01-2003 08:01									#50
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DeepO: I wrote the payload of the message. Of course it has to be expressed in a more polite, diplomatic tone.

	26-01-2003 08:04									#51
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Yes, but it's the ultimatum I don't like. We need this deal, and we will lose more then them if it doesn't go through. I want to avoid that they say "okay... no deal then... we already got the best part of it."

DeepO

	26-01-2003 08:09									#52
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My votes for this turn:

1. Delay research one more turn, making sure Vox knows it. If Vox does not comply, we've got plenty reason to be mad, and we start IW immediately.

2. Attack the Warrior, not the camp. With the 200% bonus versus Barbs, the little suckers will likely not hamper the Voxian Roading Expedition much. Might as well promote our own unit instead (and get the 25 gold two turns later).

3. We definitely need another Warrior up North. Things are reaching their boiling point with Vox. If hostilities commence, I want them to worry about their precious little Worker.


Dominae

	26-01-2003 08:15									#53
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I just wanted to answer DeepO, that I would like the 25 gold and the chance of a promotion or two, but I looked at the screen again and saw, that Willy disappeared from his lookout. Certainly went for the camp.

So we have to go for the camp.

	26-01-2003 08:28									#54
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Camp it is then. Does this mean we can move our Warrior (always forget the names!) onto the mountain?


Dominae

	26-01-2003 09:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Camp it is then. Does this mean we can move our Warrior (always forget the names!) onto the mountain?

Doing so would be just as provocative toward Vox as moving their warrior onto Grog's mountain would be toward us.

	26-01-2003 09:18									#56
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I'm going to go ahead and play the turn. We can get the exact details of the diplomatic message pinned down afterward.

	26-01-2003 09:22									#57
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Team Scores:

73 (+2) Gathering Storm
84 (+2) Demogyptica
69 (+1) Glory of War
80 (+2) Role Play
65 (+0) Vox Controli
64 (+1) Lux Invicta
87 (+2) Legoland

	26-01-2003 09:31									#58
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Views made:

Slash 2 to help protect Bolderberg
Settler 1
Grog 6, ready to attack the camp next turn if all goes well.

If the next laborer from Hurricane lands where I expect, our barracks should be ready in five turns with no shields left over.

	26-01-2003 09:32									#59
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Doing so would be just as provocative toward Vox as moving their warrior onto Grog's mountain would be toward us.

?

I thought the agreement was for their Warriors to stay put, while ours were not to venture too far North. Given that we've already got a Warrior up there already, I'm not sure what the point is in keeping ours stationary. Are Vox and us never to move those 4 Warriors ever again?

And maybe a little provocation is in order here. We're sure wasting a perfectly good Warrior waiting for Vox to come back to their nice scout spot on that Mountain tile.


Dominae

	26-01-2003 09:46									#60
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Screenshots sent. I went ahead and included a score one; I'm not sure one of those has ever been sent, and it wasn't a big extra step since we're contemplating sending a copy of the histograph part of it to Vox.