26-01-2003 23:30									#1
	FAM's Office: 1330 AD Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We're finishing up the turns from the last turnchat. The time is Monday (tomorrow), 22:00 GMT, so if you have any comments or suggestions to make before the turnchat - do it fast!
I apologize for the rush, but it's for reasons beyond my control. I promise that next time you will have more time to discuss my orders. I also promise to review this thread several times during the next 25 hours, including once just before the turnchat begins.
Finally, I'm afraid that I will not be able to attend this turnchat. I have asked Thud to be my replacement, and I'm currently waiting for his reply on this matter.
My orders follow:

Turn 0 (1330 AD, beginning of turnchat)
- All quiet On The Western Front.

Turn 1
- Sell Atomic Theory to Zululand for as much gold as they can offer.

Turn 2
- MPPs expire! Do not extend these agreements, since we'd probably want to end the wars soon (most likely during the next turnchat).
- We may sign peace treaties now without taking a reputation hit. The war with Rome serves no real purpose and we have no goals, so sign a peace treaty with Rome. Babylon doesn't have anything in particular that we want, so sign a peace treaty with Babylon for as much gold, gpt or anything else (in this order) that they can pay (I expect very little).
- We can't sign a peace treaty with Germany because we have alliances with India and Persia against them, but I'd support eliminating Germany altogether, even if India and Persia break the alliances before they are over. Anyway, we seem to be holding so far, so we can delay this discussion to the next turnchat.
- Our trade deal for furs from India will end this turn. Renew our supply of furs! We must have those furs in order to keep our citizens happy. See if we can renegotiate our peace treaty with India for furs and thereby get them for free. Otherwise, sell Radio to India for furs, and as much as Gandhi can afford.
- If radio was not sold to India yet (see order above), sell Radio to India, if they can offer 1,500 gold or more in cash, gpt or mixed.
- A resources and luxuries deal with Persia expires this turn, so Persia will have some gpt freed. Offer to sell them a tech, and if they can't pay 100 gpt or more (the likely option), offer to sell them luxuries or resources (preferably luxuries, but throw in resources as well if Xerxes will pay more) for as much gpt as they can afford.
- A deal with India will expire, and they'll have some gpt freed up. See if they can afford to buy a tech (minimum price is 100 gpt) or luxuries (minimum price is 25 gpt).

Turn 3
- Im Western Nichts Neves.

Turn 4
- Enough of the war with Japan for now. We have nothing to gain from it anyway, so sign a peace treaty with Japan for as much gold, gpt or anything else (in this order) that they can pay.

General orders
- When signing a peace treaty, try to maximize our profits! Demand (in the following order): gold, gpt, luxuries, resources, workers, maps. If the AI will agree to withdraw from a city/cities as well in exchange for peace, debate whether we want those cities (I leave the final decision to the cabinet, if I am not present during the turnchat).
- Check if any workers are available for purchase every turn, and buy if any are available. Slaves cost us near to nothing, and if we integrate them to our cities they will return the investment in a couple of turns.
- Opportunities come and go, and we don't wanna miss any! Check every turn if there are any opportunities to sell techs (for a minimum price of 1,500 gold in cash, gpt or mixed) or luxuries/resources (for a minimum price of 500 gold in cash, gpt or mixed; sell resources only to civs that are behind on 3 or more techs) to any of the AIs.
- In case I am not present during the turnchat, any or all of the above orders may be changed, should they become harmful or inappropriate. I recommend that the present cabinet be polled on any changes to my orders before they are made.

Any questions?

Last edited by Shiber on 28-01-2003 at 03:10

	27-01-2003 00:11									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

If it is possible to let some of the MPP's ride (don't remember whether this is possible), it would be advisable to do so. We want to keep those countries from stabbing us in the back for at least as long as those alliances require us to remain at war.

That said, I'm pretty sure that they'll probably call us up to ask if we want to extend the MPPs, in which case we do not.

Oh well

	27-01-2003 00:13									#3
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Oh... another note... the FAM needs approval from either the President or the SMC to sign a peace treaty. I assume that won't be a problem for these treaties, but technically you have to ask for it

	27-01-2003 00:14									#4
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Asked. Approved. Thanks.

	27-01-2003 00:18									#5
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Yes, the MPP's... We can let some, but not with England (there are some rumors about war... ), unless we decide that we don't want war with Liz.
Anyway, we should think about our war weariness. It's too high now. 50% in many regions, in Old Germany is more.

	27-01-2003 00:36									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Yes, the MPP's... We can let some, but not with England (there are some rumors about war... ), unless we decide that we don't want war with Liz. Anyway, we should think about our war weariness. It's too high now. 50% in many regions, in Old Germany is more.

Unless you're near on to suicidal when it comes to dealing with war weariness, you won't be trying to go to war with Lizzy for at least the next 30 turns...

So a few more turns of an MPP aren't going to hurt you and MIGHT just prevent Lizzy from signing an alliance against us that dooms our government to fall into anarchy...

	27-01-2003 01:23									#7
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I already had the agreement of Meshelic and Aro from the last turnchat. I figured that if these are the exact same orders, they do not have to be reapproved. Anyway, now everything is taken care of, thanks to Aro.

Regarding your suggestion to let the MPPs ride, I understand that signing peace with Rome while some of our allies are still at war with them would be considered treachery. Therefore, if we let the MPPs ride, we would not be able to end the war with Rome without taking a rep hit.

Roadcage: last time you said that we should continue the war with Japan and Babylon, because in contrary to my beliefs, that the positive effect of war weariness that is experienced when another civ declares war on you, wears out after 5 turns (giving you just enough time to sign a peace treaty before WW starts to climb), it stays for as long as certain terms are met, and that as a result, signing peace with Japan and Babylon would actually raise our WW (I don't suppose I need to remind you all this, but the other readers may be interested ).
Well, I appreciate your suggestions, as always, and I'm willing to take this one, but I'll need some proof first, to base my decision upon. I understand that the algorithms behind WW have never been officially revealed, so in this case, threads where a significant amount of people have posted about experiencing the same effects that you describe, thus empirically proving the theory that you support, would be enough.

	27-01-2003 03:12									#8
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Should we give our Roman cities to former allies, after milking these cities for workers ?
And how many turns are there left before Germany falls ? Wouldn't it be more advisable to declare peace with Germany, because of war weariness ?

	27-01-2003 03:34									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Should we give our Roman cities to former allies, after milking these cities for workers ? And how many turns are there left before Germany falls ? Wouldn't it be more advisable to declare peace with Germany, because of war weariness ?

hi ,

we should not give anything away until we know where the last two resources are , .... (!)

have a nice day

	27-01-2003 04:03									#10
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We shouldn't make peace with Germany.It will fall in some turns. I we make peace now, the other nations will conquer the last cities. I think those cities would be better in our hands than under Greek, English or Aztec rule.
Let us conquer Germany ASAP and then make peace again with the other evil nations like th Romans, Babylonians and Japanese as we can't keep this war going on due to the warweariness.

Aidun

	27-01-2003 04:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun We shouldn't make peace with Germany.It will fall in some turns. I we make peace now, the other nations will conquer the last cities. I think those cities would be better in our hands than under Greek, English or Aztec rule. Let us conquer Germany ASAP and then make peace again with the other evil nations like th Romans, Babylonians and Japanese as we can't keep this war going on due to the warweariness. Aidun

hi ,

we can always play hide and seek with the forces of the other species , .....

or we could even help germany , ......

have a nice day

	27-01-2003 05:46									#12
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , we should not give anything away until we know where the last two resources are , .... (!) have a nice day

This argument is very valid. We are not assured of having any aluminum or uranium in our borders.

	27-01-2003 06:20									#13
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I agree, panag

	27-01-2003 09:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by panag or we could even help germany , ......

What is this treacherous, and traitorous talk? DOWN WITH THE GERMANS! NO PEACE FOR BISMARCK!

	27-01-2003 16:08									#15
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We have alliances against Germany which will last for five turns after the MPPs end, IIRC (I'm at school at the moment, not sure about the time of expiration but definitely certain about those alliances), so peace with Germany is out of the question at the moment.
Regarding gifting cities, we should review this issue more carefully, but I'd support Panag's statement on this issue.
Lastly, about eliminating Germany - I'm all for taking as many German cities as possible until we can sign peace, but after that, it's back to normalcy. Our DM and RAs can tell you how much war weariness is hurting us, and a couple of German cities left on the map will make little difference (especially since they'll be ultra corrupt under our hands). If we want to eliminate Otto completely, we can do that any time, so it's best to do that when it's most convenient for us.

	27-01-2003 18:25									#16
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hi ,

imagine the germans have a tech we dont have in lets say 10 -16 turns , we shall be occupied with our space race , ...... we then could buy it from then , or we could grab it , ....

anyway there are plenty of reasons to keep them around a bit longer , ....

so for now we should focus on the couple cities we want to take , in other words , no lonf wars , but spearhead our troops in one or two cities and sign peace treaty because our people are on the brink of revolt , ....

have a nice day

	27-01-2003 21:46									#17
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War reduction plan

1340-our MPP's expire. do NOT, repeat do NOT allow them to continue. Once all are ended, we can safely negotiate peace with Rome and Babs. Continuing these MPP's will force us to fight on till Rome and Babs are eliminated.

1345 or 1350, whenever Germany is eliminated, our major War weariness will cease.

I don't expect Japan to talk to us before 1350. We can keep their fleet shuttling back and forth between Uber and the mainland by careful opening and closing of worker walls. Meanwhile we can safely bombard them with our Ironclads in our or neutral waters without fear of ww. Once Germany war is over and we have a large supply of otherwise unoccupied Artillery and Cavalry, leave the mainland wall open (on flat terrain tiles only) and Bombard the landers to 1 hp and liquidate with Cavalry. Any remaining Artillery can bombard the Jap fleet if it is within range of shore based units. Check the deal Japan offers each turn and when it is suitable, take them up on it.

Once we get out of these wars, Infrastructure till Tanks are available, then start beefing up. If we fight again, we want NO ALLIANCES or MPPs to interfere with our war plans. I don't think we plan to dominate, but if any AI on our continent choose war, we need to be able to fight, and negotiate without concern for unnecessary alliances and mpps. By around 1400 or so we will be capable of taking on the entire continent at once if we so choose. I do not think we will choose to do so, but we can if we want to.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	27-01-2003 22:57									#18
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Roadcage, I'd order to sign peace with Germany and Rome, but we have alliances against them that will last for an additional five turns after the MPPs end.
As for signing a peace treaty with Japan, I told Meshelic that I could delay the signing if he wishes to sink more Japanese ships (frankly, so do I). I'm still waiting for his response on this matter.

	27-01-2003 23:02									#19
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quote: Originally posted by panag imagine the germans have a tech we dont have in lets say 10 -16 turns

You're kidding. None of the other AI civs, even the big ones like Japan and Greece, have any techs that we don't have, because we research so much faster than they do. How could Germany, which, at the end of this war, will have only a few cities more than Persia has, possibly research a certain tech before we do?

	27-01-2003 23:45									#20
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We have no Alliances against Rome or Babylon. We do have Alliances against Germany, and trade embargos against Germany. The war reduction plan I posted above is the best plan forward and consistent with

.) The senate's desire to get out from under our war weariness.

.) The senate's desire to eliminate Germany

.) The SMC's desire to inflict some pain on the Jap fleet.

	27-01-2003 23:49									#21
	Put an end to popups!

WW is calculated on a per player basis.

If we sign a peace treaty with Germany, and then start fighting England we can handle the WW until Liz signs an alliance with Bismark bringing all the WW from Germany back into effect.

Independant of this, I don't want a war with England at least until we catch up on our inferstructure improvements. (Namely Hospitals as soon as the war with Germany ends)

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Unless you're near on to suicidal when it comes to dealing with war weariness, you won't be trying to go to war with Lizzy for at least the next 30 turns... So a few more turns of an MPP aren't going to hurt you and MIGHT just prevent Lizzy from signing an alliance against us that dooms our government to fall into anarchy...

	27-01-2003 23:55									#22
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I agree, joncnunn.
Besides that, all the fun of war (GL's) is gone...

	28-01-2003 00:31									#23
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Sorry, I included Rome in this by mistake. We can sign a peace treaty with them (see my orders).
As for Germany, see my next post...

	28-01-2003 00:32									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I AM A COMPLETE IDIOT.

The diplomacy screens read that we have trade embargos against Germany. I misread these as alliances, for some odd reason.
I support ending the war with Germany the moment that the MPPs expire. I'll ask for SMC Meshelic's opinion on this matter, and should he agree (which I expect he would), I'll change my orders to reflect that.

I apologize for misreading simple, black-on-bright-texture text, and for misleading the senate by mistake. Words cannot express how mad I am at myself. I promise that this will NOT happen again, ever.

At least I can take comfort in the fact that no actual harm was done.

	28-01-2003 00:48									#25
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Shiber,

I did sign alliances against Germany with several civs. If I remember correctly, such alliances were signed with Japan (well that doesn't matter anymore ) and a few others. Please double-check which nations would still be allied with us against Germany, as there might still be 1 or 2.

If you need clarficiation, go back and look at the original report I wrote on the "Axis of Evil"

	28-01-2003 00:49									#26
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I have sent you a response concerning this matter Shib....

	28-01-2003 00:55									#27
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Meshelic: thanks for your fast reply!

Arnelos: yes, I remember that. That's why I thought we still have alliances against Germany, but I suppose they were cancelled because the other civs have either declared war on us, in the case of Japan, or have signed a peace treaty with Germany.
I've doublechecked the save, and unless my game is broken, there are no current alliances that prevent us from signing a peace treaty with Germany, other than the MPPs.

	28-01-2003 01:09									#28
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Another apology to the senate: normally, I would have posted a poll before signing peace with Germany (though I am not required to do so, it has become a custom to do so). However, since there are slightly less than two hours left before the turnchat, there's not much point in posting a poll now.
If anyone strongly objects to signing peace with Germany, please speak up and I will consider your arguments. Though, before you do, keep in mind that I'd like to finish Otto anyway, in another short war, because if we go for the diplomatic victory he'll certainly vote anti-Apolytonia in the UN.

	28-01-2003 01:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Meshelic: thanks for your fast reply!

It had more to do with me having just woken up, pure coincedence....



Mesh

	28-01-2003 01:30									#30
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Signing a peace treaty with Germany at this point is MADNESS. This will result in irreperable harm to our reputation as several Alliances are still pending. In any event, Germany will be toast by about 1350 or so and possibly by 1345 at which time all of our problems disapear. That's only 3 or 4 more turns.

So far we have not utilized the lux slider, so there is still adequate room for a few more battles.

Stay the course!