30-01-2003 21:12									#31
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I want to establish communications...any planning will, at this stage, be nothing more than subtle hints and goding. I am in a defensive posture right now. Our troups are wary and I need some personal intel.

	30-01-2003 23:53									#32
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I'll ask, then.

	31-01-2003 01:44									#33
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Thanks!

	31-01-2003 01:55									#34
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Got this from Ghengis:

quote: quote: BigFurryMonster wrote on 29-01-2003 14:50: Hello GhengisFarb, Glorious Warmonger, I would like to speak to you about the conversation we had not long ago. You surprised me with some of the things you said, especially about the HBR trade with RP. I will outline the course of events here: a) First, we agreed not to trade HBR to RP, unless you wouldn't trade it to them. This was written in an agreement and sent to you. That was the second thing, the first negotiation was that Lux would not trade Horseback to RP period. This was to force RP to trade Writing to us and I gave Lux my word that if it cost them getting Writing we would do whatever was necessary to insure Lux received Writing. Then the treaty was sent to me REWRITTEN to allow Lux to do the exact thing we negotiated for them to not do. I deleted the improvised clause and sent it back. quote: c) We got a message from RP stating that the deal GoW-RP was off. d) We concluded, from c) and the text from a), that it was now open to us to offer RP a trade. e) You contacted me and said that we had broken a treaty. Roleplay led us to believe that your team INSTRUCTED them not to trade with us. A complete violation of the treaty, not only did you not give us a chance to trade by your own doctored clause you tried to undermine and prevent us from even negotiating a trade. You also stated that you had sent them a memo stating that you could not trade them Horseback Riding and that you couldn't send a copy to me unless Roleplay gave you approval. Roleplay claims that this memo never existed and that you are lying about ever asking them for permission to send us a copy of anything. Roleplay also told us that you claimed to have researched Horseback yourself and told them you never got it from us. The current situation: (This is unofficial but it best describes the overall mood so you can get a better grasp of how our team may react since you cannot read the comments in our forum.) This incident has shifted GoW's members from approx 70% in favor of siding with Lux to approx 55% in favor of siding with ND. The remaining 45% is split between staying out of the situation and supporting Lux. Several of the pro ND camp couldn't care less about siding with ND and simply want to go to war with Lux at the end of the nonaggression treaty. There is wide speculation that Lux and Roleplay have signed a military pact to split the continent amongst themselves and destroy us and ND, a theory which they say Roleplay members lend credence to. Honestly, there isn't much I can do at this point. The only thing that will change their attitudes is some sort of positive response from Lux. Roleplay will now give us Writing for no less than 100 gold. Which has infuriated the members of my team as they see that as the cost for trusting Lux. The best idea I can see is for you to trade Horseback Riding to Roleplay for Writing and give Writing to us. I seriously doubt your team would do this, but it would allow me to convince my more pro-war colleagues that we lost nothing in this exchange. We wanted Writing for Horseback and we got it and by not costing us gold it would undermine two of the arguments of the war supporters. If necessary we could simply not tell Roleplay where we got it. Another other option is gold. I had offered to assist Lux in getting Writing if our deal cost them that tech only to discover Lux going behind our back and rejecting my offer. If Lux could help offset the 100 gold cost of Writing that would help to undermine the resentment of my team members. Lastly, these are not ultimatums, I still plan to honor the commitments my team made in the treaty in regards to Construction, Commerce, and Mathematics. I am however less than secure in my beliefs that Lux will honor theirs. These are merely suggestions on ways to decrease the animosity and tensions between our teams

	31-01-2003 03:20									#35
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Something must be done to rectify the situation. While GF may very well be bluffing about the situation (and may very well not be bluffing), all said, we are probably a more attractive target than NDE. We have better land, fewer cities, and are on poor terms with NDE.

Either A) we let them trade with our best graces, or B) we give them the tech. B is ideal, because it's a true showing of friendship and trust. Everyone throw in your 2 cents.

	31-01-2003 03:40									#36
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Well we KNOW that two of those comments, that the memo was never sent, and we never told them that we got HBR from GoW is not true. That conversation where we said both is posted in the "RP Tech Trade Offer" forum". Obviously either RP or GoW is lying, and we need to find out who.

	31-01-2003 04:57									#37
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Agreed.

If I could throw my chips in with anyone, it would probably be RP. GoW has no reason to accuse us of anything... they just want their tech. I think that RP having such a large team may be causing some miscommunication between what comes from us and gets to GoW through them...

	31-01-2003 06:38									#38
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Continuing to trade is probably the best option. Just letting them trade is bad. It's the first step to us gettin out of the loop. This not only hurts us tech wise but makes us an easier target to attack.

	31-01-2003 13:15									#39
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Agreed. We should not get thrown out of the loop. I therefore sent this to Ghengis:

quote: Hello GhengisFarb! Again, thank you for your quick reply. We Luxians like to deal with miscommunications that have arisen as soon as possible (we'd rather avoid them in the future, though). I have consulted the people of Luxia. They feel that more care could have been taken in the process -with the sent messages and all- but they want to continue trade anyway. Also, it is not a good thing that RP asks so much of you for Writing. Luxia is divided, but have listened to my advice. That is to go with your solution. We will get Writing from RP and give it to you for free. But we feel that: we hereby compensate you in a very royal way. It is the trust we put in you. We have therefore a few sidenotes: a) As you said yourself, keep this a secret. We do not want to be known as the Civ that gives away tech for free...! That goes for both ND and RP, and for any other civ you might meet in the future. b) Do not trade Writing to ND. I cannot check this, and I won't hold you responsible for doing it anyway, but I ask you a favor in return for the one I just gave you. c) We (obviously) need Writing first. I don't think that will be a problem, but I cannot claim that I have it until the scroll is at my side of the bargaining table. I hope that in the future, you will cast your "serious doubts" about Lux aside, and that you can convince your people of this as well. I repeat: we are a peaceful and honorable nation. We value trust, and will keep our promises. We will contact RP to see when they have Writing for us. Realize that you have lost nothing, but have gained the option of having an extra friend. BigFurryMonster

	31-01-2003 13:31									#40
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An jdjdjd told me that he sent this to GoW:

quote: jdjdjd wrote on 30-01-2003 20:47: Hello Dear Panzer: I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI). I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off. Please let us know should you have any questions. I remain, jdjdjd

	01-02-2003 15:21									#41
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Ghengis sent me this:

quote: First, I will filling in the GoW abassador duties to Lux, as Panzer32 already has his hands full with other issues. If your team will agree to give us Writing, we need to know an exact turn we can expect it. As stated before we can't research another tech until we have Writing or Mathematics and Mathematics is still a good ways away. Roleplay has informed us they will have Writing in 2 turns and are trying to trade it to us for Horseback Riding now. Unfortunately, we have caught them lying to us in these negotiations at least once. Consequently, my team members are starting to get very paranoid in their ideas of negotiating with other civs. I would request that you determine a definite answer on the exact turn you will get Writing from Roleplay. If it is soon we can quit our own negotiations with them for Writing and let your team trade them Horsback Riding. Then our team can continue to map out the lower continent with our warriors and after Mapmaking trade you the entire mapped area of Roleplay's vast territorial claim. We have already discovered a large clump of Silk, a large clump of Gems, two Iron resources and rivered areas larger than our combined lands in the north and have been told they also have Spices (from Togas) and Ivory (from ND). We have also mapped out the locations of at least two of their current cities.

	01-02-2003 17:26									#42
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All I can say is a strong military can sometimes cool off the war mongerers from other civs. That said...we really need to get this worked out.

	01-02-2003 21:39									#43
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Very disappointing:

quote: BFM, Apparently Panzer32 agreed to a trade with Roleplay for Writing so that a deal with Lux will not be able to go through. We still have a standing deal of Mathematics for Mysticism do we not?

	02-02-2003 08:53									#44
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IMHO, they are trying to force us to make the HBR trade and then possbly claim we then violated that "treaty". We must tell them that if u refuse to let us trade with RP after not making this trade with us, it is almost no different then setting up an embargo (but in polite terms, of course). If dont make this trade for whatever reason, our tech trading plan is in a lot of trouble.

	03-02-2003 01:02									#45
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I'm going to "be the victim of all this" to both GoW and RP. Hopefully, RP will get us a good deal on Writing.

A trade between GoW and RP has still not taken place - they're fighting over two GoW warriors in RP's lands.

	03-02-2003 02:46									#46
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I confirmed that we have the standing deal Maths-Myst. I'll continue this in another thread, since this trade chapter is closed.