27-01-2003 02:45									#1
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I had this conversation with GhengisFarb. I cannot comment due to RL obligations. I will elaborate later.

quote: [22:18] We need to talk [22:20] Alright, if this the way Lux wants it then I guess that is the way it will have to be. [22:24] Hi there! Which way? [22:24] We have just been informed you have broken the treaty [22:24] Which treaty? [22:25] The treaty not to trade Horseback Riding to Roleplay. [22:25] We did not break it. [22:26] You offered to trade it to them in 5 turns AFTER you agreed not to trade it to them. [22:26] Why do you think such a thing? [22:26] Members of Roleplay informed us [22:27] Nonsense. We stated that if they could not get HBR from you, they can trade it with us. But this was clearly agreed with you - YOU have priority here [22:28] Just to get things straight - a) Do you agree on that agreement b) Is this what RP told you? [22:28] No Yes [22:29] Could you tell me what you think the agreement is? [22:29] The agreement states that you will not trade Horseback Riding to Roleplay. Period [22:29] Hold on, I'll look it up in the books [22:31] OK - I have it here: [22:31] Lux Invicta hereby trades Iron Working to GoW in exchange for Horseback Riding this turn (2270 BC), ... [22:31] ...with the assurance that Lux Invicta will not trade Horseback Riding to the Roleplay Team ... [22:31] PERIOD [22:31] ...until after a deal has been worked out between the two teams. [22:31] Agree on that text? [22:32] That last phrase was deleted because it was not part of the negotiated agreement. And the treaty was then sent back to Lux [22:32] Let me see... [22:34] Who sent it to whom? [22:35] Trip doctored the original to mean something different that was agreed to in the chat. I edited it back to what was agreed to. And sent it back to him. [22:35] Your team has built up its units for a war, correct? [22:36] I have only Trip's message to you and me, including the sentence. [22:36] Hmm - before jumping to any conclusions, let us make sure we have the same information [22:37] We need a statement from your team to Roleplay that you have agreed not to trade them Horseback Riding and a copy sent to us. [22:38] Let me see... [22:40] I have a copy of a message stating that, but I cannot send it to you until RP agrees (it was marked confidential) [22:40] I propose that =after RP agrees= I send it to you and RP and then we confirm the course of events [22:41] You will then see that we gave them space to conduct business with you [22:41] You have a copy of a message in which you told RP that you cannot trade Horseback RIding to them. [22:43] The message says that we expect a HRB trade between RP, but if this deal be cancelled, we can do business [22:43] HRB = HBR [22:44] Okay, I will await the document [22:45] Hold on - 2 things need to be clear: [22:45] 1) Which exact wording was used in our agreement (I need Trip for that) [22:46] 2) RP has to agree that I send you a copy of the confidential message [22:46] Can you agree on that? [22:48] i can agree that those need to be clear. [22:48] All right. I will need some time to do that. [22:48] Okay [22:48] As I said - do not jump to conclusions, please. [22:48] Many of my team members already have. [22:48] I will contact Trip and RP. Who is the person you have contact with in RP? [22:49] I cannot say, as they were unaware that the treaty between Lux and Roleplay existed. [22:50] OK. I will talk to you later. Bye!

	27-01-2003 03:53									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

More Problems. Our affairs with VOx is going nuts. Jon Miller is whingin that they wont be getting tier 2 tech for tier 2 tech. We are not at a position to give tier 2 tech to tehm due to their situation. And even wosre they feel that mysticism isnt owed to us. Sigh.

	27-01-2003 08:49									#3
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Good lord. Everyone is backing out on their deals. We need some strong allies; we can't keep trying to play everyone for tech deals.

	27-01-2003 13:54									#4
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Stick to the subject. We need to convince GoW that we have not broken any deal. Ghengis' statement:

quote: That last phrase was deleted because it was not part of the negotiated agreement. And the treaty was then sent back to Lux

...is ridiculous (I hope - Trip can you confirm that you did not receive such a PM ?)

We clearly opened up options for GoW to trade HBR. We can prove that. The Question is: do we want to? We need RP for this.

Apparently, RP is leaking information to GoW. I will speak to RP about this.

	27-01-2003 16:04									#5
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This is a Civ soap opera

	27-01-2003 19:43									#6
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Hold on...have we lost anything? We got HBR for IW, what did we get from Vox for IW-Myst???

Someone help me out, here...

	27-01-2003 19:50									#7
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Check out the Trades thread.

	28-01-2003 03:29									#8
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We need to sort out Whether that final line was in the aggreement. I do agree that we can't continue to play everyone for deals, at least to teh extent we have been. especially how we know the other teams esp. GoW and RP and saying what deals we have with each. We can still suggest things for te other teams to research, but trying to engage with elaborate trading schemes with GoW and RP just isnt going to work.

	28-01-2003 04:19									#9
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quote: GhengisFarb wrote on January 26th, 2003 04:40 am: quote: Trip wrote on 23-01-2003 02:11: This is the official agreement, as outlined by the previous meeting between LI and GoW, witnessed by BigFurryMonster and Trip of Lux Invicta, and GhengisFarb of Glory of War: Lux Invicta hereby trades Iron Working to GoW in exchange for Horseback Riding this turn (2270 BC), with the assurance that Lux Invicta will not trade Horseback Riding to the Roleplay Team. The second part of the deal is as follows: GoW will trade Mathematics (which it will acquire from Neu Demogyptica in about 10 turns) to LI when it recieves it, and LI will trade Mysticism to GoW as soon as it has it. GoW is expected to reveal knowledge of this deal to no one but ND, and only if they ask for such information. This document under these terms have been officially agreed to by officials holding authority on both teams. Agreed. We've mapped out the east coast and there is no way Roleplay has contact with any other civ. I've even confirmed it with some of the Roleplay members so this will mean they have to get Horseback Riding from us.

Unfortunately for GF, he sent it back modified (which I didn't notice) with the word "agreed". The problem for him is that he sent back a revised version which I did not agree to. That means there was no binding contract ever made.

	28-01-2003 05:28									#10
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So we win on a technicality?

	28-01-2003 05:41									#11
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Yes.

	28-01-2003 12:51									#12
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We need to talk this out with GhengisFarb. I don't know whether he did this on purpose or not, but he cannot send us back a modified agreement with the word 'agreed' on it and expecting us to agree as well. Trip - can you be in the chatroom around 19:00 GMT? Ghengis is usually there, so we might contact him. Then, we can do three things:

a) Go for the technicality. We left them room to trade, which we can have confirmed by RP, and that's it. We'll trade HBR.

b) Tell them we didn't like this, and give them 3 turns to work out a trade between GoW and RP. If they can't agree, we will trade them HBR.

c) Tell them we didn't like this, and not trade HBR with RP. We will be losing credibility from RP, then.

	28-01-2003 13:03									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

1900? That would be noon here, when I have lots of classes. I was thinking later in the day would be better...

Last edited by Trip on 28-01-2003 at 13:15

	28-01-2003 19:10									#14
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Is this worked out?

	28-01-2003 21:06									#15
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No - nothing has been worked out yet. Our office is open for suggestions.

	28-01-2003 23:01									#16
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Coming from me this will sound strange, but even "warmongers" must learn to compramise.

1) Tell GoW that we have backed out of our deal with RP for HBR.-We can't afford to risk angering our strong neighbors to the North.

2) Explain our situation to RP, emphasizing that someone within their organization may be a traitor, and as such, we cannot afford to risk strife between us and GoW. Also, leave open our friendship and future exchanges.

RP will understand and we may find some other way of dealing with them. We need to be concilliatory to GoW, who is rightfully flexing their muscles, while we must show restraint.

	28-01-2003 23:07									#17
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In effect, you chose option c). Actually I am more in favour of option b).

	29-01-2003 00:29									#18
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True, but GoW and NDE are growing concerns in the back of my mind...they need to be placated.

	29-01-2003 13:21									#19
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This is what I intend to send to GhengisFarb of GoW:

quote: Hello GhengisFarb, Glorious Warmonger, I would like to speak to you about the conversation we had not long ago. You surprised me with some of the things you said, especially about the HBR trade with RP. I will outline the course of events here: a) First, we agreed not to trade HBR to RP, unless you wouldn't trade it to them. This was written in an agreement and sent to you. b) You sent back the agreement, but without the sentence '...unless GoW does not trade it to RP', to Trip. It wasn't noticed by us that you had suddenly changed the text, so we did not reply and it was our opinion that the text I descibed under a) was agreed upon. c) We got a message from RP stating that the deal GoW-RP was off. d) We concluded, from c) and the text from a), that it was now open to us to offer RP a trade. e) You contacted me and said that we had broken a treaty. Let me know if I give a rightful description of the events. Before I comment on this, let me clearly point out that Lux values to be open and honest. We also do not want some short-term advantage if this means losing you as a strategic partner. Especially now that relations are becoming tense on this continent. I have also asked a representative of RP to testify what I said. Fact 1: we have not traded HBR to RP yet, because we want to sort things out with you first. Fact 2: we feel that if you do not trade HBR to RP, ND or some other Civ will. Not in 20 turns, but sooner than that. Our window of opportunity is closing. Fact 3: we offer you =again= room to trade HBR to RP. If you cannot work this deal out, however, we'd rather be the civ trading HBR to them, and not ND. Shall we say we want clarity in two turns from now? Let me know how you and your people feel about this. Then, another thing. You asked in our chat whether we have been amassing troops. Well, we fear that ND is the aggressive civ, so we are prepared to defend ourselves if they attack. However, we will not make an attack ourselves. We value peace above all. I would like to know your thoughts on this situation as well, because if ND and Lux go to war eventually, GoW might be drawn in. What is your opinion of the ND civ? I hope we can resolve this matter soon. I also hope to meet you on #Apolyton channel in the next few days! BigFurryMonster Minister of Peace

	29-01-2003 19:29									#20
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This is good, very pc, and precise!

	29-01-2003 20:12									#21
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Thanks - but what do you mean by 'pc' ?

	29-01-2003 21:05									#22
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Political correct

	29-01-2003 23:12									#23
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For not being a native english-speaker, BFM sure is good with the language.

Where did GoW talk about us massing troops though? I remember telling GF that we saw NDE massing troops at our border, but I don't remember him saying anything about us massing troops...

	30-01-2003 00:41									#24
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Thanks :-)

I was referring to Ghengis' Q:

quote: Your team has built up its units for a war, correct?

I suppose I can send the message above, then?

	30-01-2003 01:51									#26
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Message sent.

Either they'll come to their senses, or things will get of hand.

Or something in between. We'll see.

	30-01-2003 02:03									#27
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Let's hope they don't do anything rash.

	30-01-2003 05:28									#28
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If they're all about 'honor' as they say, then this should end up fine with a bit of discussion.

	30-01-2003 19:55									#29
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Could someone find out who the war minister is in GoW and RP, or rather, who is holding a similar position.

	30-01-2003 20:36									#30
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Sure. Why? You mean that if we're getting PMs from them, it means trouble? Or are you going to contact them to set up an attack plan ..? If so, call it a Defense Plan, because I just claimed that we're a very peaceful nation :-)