27-01-2003 09:50									#31
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"t helps Indian economy."

not the point. How does it help yours? Mine?Say, Microsoft decides to go to India for there next generation OS. You think Microsoft is actually gonna lower prices for there next generation OS cause its cheaper to code? haha

	27-01-2003 09:51									#32
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory not the point. How does it help yours? Mine?Say, Microsoft decides to go to India for there next generation OS. You think Microsoft is actually gonna lower prices for there next generation OS cause its cheaper to code? haha

Microsoft looked closely at outsourcing to India to design its products and concluded it wasn't cost-effective in the long run.

	27-01-2003 09:54									#33
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"Using "they get paid 1/4 of what an American is" is a really silly argument, $1 goes a helluva lot farther in India than the US."

Thats really freakin irrelevant. And you know it. That doesnt mean diddly. The corporations play on this to save more money. It isnt morally right.


When was the last time any of you ate cat food for dinner?

I know shitloads of people who are out of work. Too many. Theres nowhere to work except retail. Such a bright future in retail.....

	27-01-2003 09:55									#34
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Actually, increases in labor productivity do not tend to flow through to the company's bottom line. Rather, they flow to the employees' wages. So most companies will pay the remainder of their employees more, after shipping some jobs overseas.

	27-01-2003 09:56									#35
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asher reread my post. You see I made that up as an example. It stands true. The only ones who gain anything out of this deal are corporations.

Foriegn workers get what amounts to a ragged Bone.

	27-01-2003 09:56									#36
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FG, please explain to me how this is different from anything that has ever gone on in the field of capitalist economic development since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution? Other than the fact that it is your job, this time.

It seems to me that countries have always fared best when they were able to export their jobs and skills to the world outside, leaving it to the exporters to create new jobs and skills. It is obvious that once you restrict the right to export jobs, you restrict the right to grow, to change, to evolve. You will put a lock on the economic and social evolution of our country, and create a grey, stagnant life for us all.

	27-01-2003 09:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Thats really freakin irrelevant. And you know it. That doesnt mean diddly. The corporations play on this to save more money. It isnt morally right.

Ah, morally right.
Right, whatever.

It's more moral to hoarde the resources we have instead of employing less fortunate people overseas.

The moral argument can cut both ways. It's immoral to set up invisible barriers to protect our jobs, it's immoral to let foreigners do jobs we could do, etc.

Really, it's just senseless whining.

quote: When was the last time any of you ate cat food for dinner?

Cat food ain't cheap, why the hell would you do something stupid like that?

quote: I know shitloads of people who are out of work. Too many. Theres nowhere to work except retail. Such a bright future in retail.....

So let's blame India?
Hey! Wait, I know!
We can bomb India! Yes!

	27-01-2003 09:56									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Microsoft looked closely at outsourcing to India to design its products and concluded it wasn't cost-effective in the long run.

Microsofts policy is to be cost-effective? I thought it was too spend as much money as neccisary to buy or destroy their competitiors to one day conquer the world and become our supreme overlords. Although I guess that is cost effective in the long run.

	27-01-2003 09:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Cat food ain't cheap, why the hell would you do something stupid like that?

Who the hell eats cat food, when you can get people food cheaper?!

	27-01-2003 09:59									#40
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There's an obvious solution here: worldwide unions. If capital can go transnational, labor should, too.

	27-01-2003 10:00									#41
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory asher reread my post. You see I made that up as an example. It stands true. The only ones who gain anything out of this deal are corporations.

So you made up an example which doesn't hold true. Yet when told it doesn't hold true, you insist it "stands true", and further, it tells us that the only people to gain anything out of the deal are the corporations.

quote: Foriegn workers get what amounts to a ragged Bone.

Do you still not understand that the "ragged bone" they get is anything BUT a ragged bone to them? Cost of living is MUCH lower there, I thought we've been through this???

Really, Faded, I don't see what your problem is. The article is talking about skilled people, and, well, what exactly are you skilled in?

	27-01-2003 10:00									#42
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I never ate catfood


Just saying. Yall are living in Ivory Towers, looking down. Alot of people down there are gonna be really pissed in the next 20 years if this **** continues. There already living on the edge.

	27-01-2003 10:02									#43
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Im skilled in Trolling, Printing Plate engineering, TR Troubleshoot A+. I have alot of credintials under my belt Its all on Monster.com


I used to make 30,000$ a year fixing industrial presses.

	27-01-2003 10:03									#44
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I, for one, will take that chance. I would be willing to bet you $1,000 that you will have a better job in 5 years than your previous one.

	27-01-2003 10:05									#45
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My Job went to Haiti. Now I shine shoe's for a living

Shin'e ya boot's Gov'na ?


Im sure the haitan who got my job and is paid 2 cents a day lives very comfortably.

Actually haiti didnt take my job. I blame myself, bad economy, whatever the usual. I just know I dont have one.

	27-01-2003 10:08									#46
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im up for that Dan. No kidding. But I serouisly doubt it.


I have Job offers already. Fuji offered me a service job. But I couldnt even afford an apartment on what they wanted to pay me.

i need some sleep. Im probably ranting here and am not making alot of sense. I should probably leave this sort of stuff for the commi's.

	27-01-2003 10:09									#47
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I used to be an ardent opponent of globalization, but I have come to realize the reactionary, and ultimately, counterproductive nature of it's detractors. That's to say, I have come to understand globalization in terms of it being a necessary step to worldwide socialism.

	27-01-2003 10:10									#48
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FG is also committing the very common disconnect that many anti-corporationalists* have, in not realizing that corporations are voluntary associations of people that are united towards a common goal, that of making a financial profit in a given business.

Bank of America has appx. 156,000 employees worldwide. The above article starts with the removal of 4,700 BoA jobs, or .03% of their payroll. When this is done, they will have 151,300 people remaining on payroll. FG is disassociating the fact that these layoffs benefit 151,300 people, by making their company a little more profitable and making their jobs a little more secure.

So, it's not just one corporation, it's 153,000 employees, plus about a half-million shareholders, and a fair number of families in India - they all benefit for the loss of a mere 4,700 jobs.

I'm rather surprised that you would rather force 700,000 people to unwillingly pay for the "right" to be employed at the BoA. I'm quite disappointed in you, FG. I mean, it's not like they're killing people.

*Is that a word?

Last edited by JohnT on 27-01-2003 at 10:15

	27-01-2003 10:11									#49
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory not the point. How does it help yours? Mine?Say, Microsoft decides to go to India for there next generation OS. You think Microsoft is actually gonna lower prices for there next generation OS cause its cheaper to code? haha

It doesn't. In fact, our economy is sucking up real bad right now. But I digress. Moving operation overseas is inevitable - all companies do that for the bottom line. This is Capitalism at work. It doesn't benefit everybody, just the companies. Of course, some sectors might benefit from it, say, accounting, advertising, luxury goods, some manufacturing, etc.

	27-01-2003 10:11									#50
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im up for that Dan. No kidding. But I serouisly doubt it.

If we can set up a neutral here, we can do the bet.

It doesn't benefit everybody, just the companies.

UR: Not so. It tends to flow through to the wages of the remaining employees. Counterintuitive, but that's the way it works.

	27-01-2003 10:19									#51
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory . I should probably leave this sort of stuff for the commi's.

Don't worry FG, where can a person rant if not at Apolyton?

	27-01-2003 10:22									#52
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The argument for global trade is such BS. The whole theory behind it is that each region will produce a good that they are particularily efficient at. That is, where the production and distribution of that good takes the least amount of labor. The thing is that the global trade system doesn't work like that. Goods are produced where ever companies can pay workers the least amount of money. The two are almost never the same. Very often goods and services can be produced and distributed in America with less labor, but they are produced far away with more labor and shipped back here to the US where they are consumed. The whole thing is horribly unefficient.

There is one more terrible thing about the level of globalization these days. That is that when we have another depression its going to hit the whole world like a 2 ton brick. Hopefully then we can adapt a system that will not take us back to this rediculousness.

	27-01-2003 10:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The argument for global trade is such BS. The whole theory behind it is that each region will produce a good that they are particularily efficient at. That is, where the production and distribution of that good takes the least amount of labor. The thing is that the global trade system doesn't work like that. Goods are produced where ever companies can pay workers the least amount of money. The two are almost never the same. Very often goods and services can be produced and distributed in America with less labor, but they are produced far away with more labor and shipped back here to the US where they are consumed. The whole thing is horribly unefficient. There is one more terrible thing about the level of globalization these days. That is that when we have another depression its going to hit the whole world like a 2 ton brick. Hopefully then we can adapt a system that will not take us back to this rediculousness.

Better still, let's build huge trade barriers from state to state.

Or hell, we can do it from county to country!

This is exceptional logic.

	27-01-2003 10:28									#54
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Trade barriers keeping your jobs here would only hurt the workers of other states.

	27-01-2003 10:28									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DanS UR: Not so. It tends to flow through to the wages of the remaining employees. Counterintuitive, but that's the way it works.

The theory goes that way, but what's the point when the motivation of moving operations overseas is to cut cost?

	27-01-2003 10:31									#56
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I mean, it's not like they're killing people.

Are you sure about that?

	27-01-2003 10:31									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK The argument for global trade is such BS. The whole theory behind it is that each region will produce a good that they are particularily efficient at.

That's "relative advantage" advocated by Ricardo.

	27-01-2003 10:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's "relative advantage" advocated by Ricardo.

Oh right. I should have used that term, but the argument still holds.

	27-01-2003 10:45									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The theory goes that way, but what's the point when the motivation of moving operations overseas is to cut cost?

Cutting cost is only a microeconomic concern if it doesn't result in more macroeconomic production. If you have lower costs and lower wages and consumption then you have taken a loss. It takes more man hours to produce something far away and ship it than it does to produce it locally. The cost is only lower because real wages have fallen.

	27-01-2003 10:51									#60
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Urban Ranger,

Sorry, I think I took your words out of context.