27-01-2003 15:49									#1
	Tactics for Medieval:Total War Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Does anyone here at 'poly play M:TW ? I just started playing this seriously as a break from SMAC waiting for MoO3 to come out, and I'm hooked. I find I do better letting the computer automatically resolve the battles, but that takes the fun out of the game. So - a call for help. I want to play the battles and I want to win without having to use overwhelming force always. I have discovered 2 important strats so far:

1.) There is never any reason to build peasants 27 Feudal Knights beat 900 of my peasants. Painful.
2.) Always take some light cavalry in an army and hold in reserve for chasing stragglers after the battle. Useful

That's it, so I need some help here. I never have enough money either.

-Jam

	27-01-2003 16:51									#2
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You're wise to avoid peasants there are virtually no circumstances under which they can beat anything. Charging downhill in a rainstorm against the rear of an archer unit maybe, as long as something was scaring them enough to stop them turning round to face you.

I tend to win by having a solid polearm backbone to my armies. Feudal Sergeants and up can deal with just about anything except horse archers. Find a defensive position and line them up. You can thin the ranks to spread out if you have to, but they work best in depth. A formation like = -- -- = -- -- = is good. Then have a couple of archer units very close behind to pepper the enemy and draw them onto your spears.

Hide Cavalry wedges behind your flanks only to wheel out and hit the enemy side and rear once they have committed to charging your spearmen (or your spears advance onto them). They are expensive and die easily so like you say, use them only for flank attacks and pursuits. Even pursuits become a luxury when you get 20+ units opposing you. Your cavalry will be exhausted before their fresh reinforcements appear if you are not careful.

For best effect you need to "trick" the Ai. Don't advance your spears onto specific enemy units. Set a target spot behind the enemy and advance toward that. If you target enemy units the AI will instantly react to you but there's usually a small delay (as their should be) if you just advance generally. This is about the only way a foot army can pin down and crush a light cavalry army. Slowly advance and spread out so that you can sieze any opportunity to close around a few units, crush them and then expand out into line formation again and repeat.

	27-01-2003 18:15									#3
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So, line up all my spears and advance eh? I'll be giving that a try tonight. I assume I put everyone into a line, select all, instruct to hold position and then click somewhere behind the enemy lines of battle. Is that the general idea? I find that I also have a big problem with mounted archers. I can't ever seem to catch them. The AI has won a couple of defences through "time-out" as I chased their horses for 30mins.... argh! I suppose I need my own horse archers and more of them ?

Thanks for the tip, anyone else got a good one?

-Jam

	28-01-2003 01:33									#4
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Grumbolds got some good ideas, and I'm glad to hear you're playing Medieval. its a rocking game. The official forum is at http://pub24.ezboard.com/bshoguntotalwar , and shogun.org has some good strats. But they're a bunch of elitists.

There is a very good use for peasants, if you're cheap. Masses of peasnats with good generals can win just about any battle via the autocalc.

But thats not really any fun.

Myself I tend to tailor my forces to what I'm facing. One of my preffered methods of assaulting is similiar to Alexander's diagonal advance.

Form your solid defensive troops on one side, typically spears and other type troops. Next to them is the combat infantry, swordsmen, halberds and such. Next to them is the hard hitting cavalry.

Advance so that the spears are furthest back, with the combat infantry next, and the cavalry furthest forward. Any archers march even with the assault infantry, behind the cavalry. Try to line the cavalry to the side of their defensive line. The enemy will be limited in his ability to redploy due to your furthest back troops. If he swings to face your assault troops, you hit him in the flank. The purpose is to try and hold most of his army in place while your best troops fight a smaller proportion of his. Make sure to keep a cavalry unit or two in reserve to handle any extreme situations.

This strategy has worked for me, though it can be hard to pull off in certain situations.


And as to those dang horse archers, you do indeed some light cavalry of your own. But you can also out maneuver such retreating troops sometimes. The AI doesn't ussually rely on too large of groups of such troops. Unless you're facing mongols. And those battles are often so huge autocalc is the only way to avoid playing 12 hour battles.

	28-01-2003 13:01									#5
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But I want to play 12 hour battles ! Actually I've only been playing M:TW a short while, and I just found the slider to hurry the time. Super JOY ! Now I don't have to wait for hours while my troops chase theirs off the battle field.

Thanks for the link.

-Jam

	28-01-2003 19:46									#6
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quote: Originally posted by War of Art So, line up all my spears and advance eh? I'll be giving that a try tonight. I assume I put everyone into a line, select all, instruct to hold position and then click somewhere behind the enemy lines of battle. Is that the general idea?

You got it.

quote: I find that I also have a big problem with mounted archers. I can't ever seem to catch them. The AI has won a couple of defences through "time-out" as I chased their horses for 30mins.... argh! I suppose I need my own horse archers and more of them ?

With enemy horse archers the only answer is to spread wiiiiide. They can't charge the front of anything, so stretch out. Don't advance too far toward them, envelop them. Once you've covered the flanks, slowly close the noose. Eventually they'll try and break out in one direction. If you've done it right their only choice will be to rout off the map or into your troops.

	28-01-2003 21:12									#7
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quote: But I want to play 12 hour battles ! Actually I've only been playing M:TW a short while, and I just found the slider to hurry the time. Super JOY ! Now I don't have to wait for hours while my troops chase theirs off the battle field. Thanks for the link. -Jam

Oh man. I don't think I could play that game without the slider. . . .You do know about the pause button right? Hit P to pause iffin you do not. Some people don't like to use it, but with 3000 troops on the field, its a lot easier to give orders.

	29-01-2003 13:00									#8
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Yeah, but I always feel guilty pressing the pause button. I mean its meant to be RTS, not PTS (PauseTimeStrat) Having said that I completed Dune Emperor in one outing just by using the pause button. *yawn* Select all troops, move to back of enemy base, pause, select target, unpause, target instantly obliterated by firepower of whole army, pause again, select new target, etc. You can win without taking any return fire. Just always fire everything at the closest enemy, and hr can never get into range, aim and shoot, before... BANG ! So this game has really put me off using the pause button for ever.

Is there a use in M:TW for the gunpowder units ? 120 of these firing all at once killed one man, and before I could reload, they'd charged my "musketeers" or whatever they're called. Arbalesters or something. And then they died and ran. Do these units simply suck?

-Jam

	29-01-2003 15:00									#9
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I play this......and it's pretty good.

For strategy remember its essentially rock paper scissors, so you need to learn what is effective against what. With the latest patch cavalry got a nice boost, but with earlier versions spearman/pike units were too powerful, so bear that in mind.

Defending is easy. Park your ranged units on a high point.......and fire until arrows are exhausted. When they get in range retreat the archers and bring your spear/pike front line up, and keep your cavalry ready for charges against their ranged units. If you have arrows left you need to make sure you protect your ranged from his cavalry.

On attack you are basically attempting to make his lose formation by harassing with your ranged. Ultimately you will have to go for his lines.........try and break through with cavalry/shock troops and rout some of his units.

Hope that helps.

	29-01-2003 15:09									#10
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Thanks Doc

One problem is that I'm not really sure what the best units are. The manual has no information or stats on the units, and the fold-out thing only says who can build what, and what buildings they need. I find the Byzantine Inf. chops up most things, but an army of 900 of these bad boys is a bit dull, if you know what I mean. There's a huge range of horsies and spear-sloggers, but are they really different ? Apart from the graphics of course.

-Jam

	29-01-2003 15:34									#11
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Yeah there are units within each class that are better. Check out the forums athttp://www.totalwar.org

	29-01-2003 15:37									#12
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There's about a hundred pages of these things !

"Oh my God it's full of ... POSTS !"

I was kinda hoping you'd let something slip yourself, Doc but I guess not. I'll have to take a break from 'poly and get reading. I want to get the hand of M:TW before MoO3 or GalCiv come plopping on my doormat. Otherwise I never will.

-Jam

	29-01-2003 15:41									#13
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I would but its been a while and there are so many I don't remember all the names. I'm guessing saying, you know, the black ones, with the big spears isn't going to help that much.

	29-01-2003 15:47									#14
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Ok I fired her up (no I am not trying to put off starting work - how dare you).

Try these. A balanced army has around 4 spear, 4 sword, 4 ranged and 4 cav......though if you have bonuses for a certain unit you can change this a bit. Depending on your race try:

Heavy cav - chivalric knights
Light cav - alan mercenary
Defensive spears - order foot
Offensive spears - billmem
swords (both offensive and defensive by nature) - cmaa
archers - long bow.

	29-01-2003 15:53									#15
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Thanks again Doc

Is it useful to have so many missile units? I find they're not doing more than 1 or two kills with each barrage, and certainly not stopping approaching units, or reducing them significantly. I must be doing something wrong. And what's the thing with the generals' characteristics ? Questions, questions...

-Jam

	29-01-2003 15:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by War of Art Thanks again Doc Is it useful to have so many missile units?

I like at least 4 on defence.....4 on attack.....just play and find what suits you.

They do a lot of damage, especially if directed at expensive units with low armour, such as many shocks troops. The key is managing to defend them against enemy cavalry during the fight. It's easy in SP, but in MP can be tricky.

	29-01-2003 18:20									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

But a whole quarter of my army as shooters? So these guys are only good if I have a lot of them. Hmm. I'll try the "rain of arrows approach" tonight.
Does the "mass charge" with 16 units of the best cavalry, and nothing else, work? That would be fun...

-Jam

	29-01-2003 18:25									#18
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Depends on how many spears/pikes they have, and the comparative valour of the 2 armies. Out of the box spears munched cav too easily......now in the latest patch cav are better.......you might get away with it against some armies.

	29-01-2003 18:39									#19
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Pessimist !
I'm going to try it. Just against peasants first, then milita and so on till I find the balance. It's great that you can set up this game for a one-off battle with ANY forces you like. This is really keeping me away from Civ, SMAC and the rest. And I don't suck at RTS normally. I only have the one tactic, which always wins. But I can't just build a heap of the best units and steamroller the oppositon in this game. Maybe in a few weeks I'll crack it

Hmm, and a few guys with spears shouldn't stop MY cavalry

-Jam

	29-01-2003 19:53									#20
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This isn't really RTS.......more real time tactical. There aren't many games I would call the same genre as the battles in MTW.

	29-01-2003 20:22									#21
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Maybe my "spears rule!" tactic is now out of date if Cavalry have been toughened but I still think their best use is for flanking enemies. You don't need to take heavy casualties killing the opposition if they're almost ready to break before you charge them. Cavalry are perfect for whisking round their flank and rear.

	29-01-2003 20:26									#22
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Absolutely, they are great for flanking now. Out of the box the spears wheeled perfectly to meet the charge head on every time, and always got the formation bonus when attacked in such a manner. Now they do not unless they can complete the face change maneouvre in time.

	29-01-2003 22:31									#23
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Aha. Nice change.

I must admit to largely being disappointed with heavy cavalry, especially the really expensive chivalric ones. They exhaust themselves after a single charge and are only really good at beating up other heavy cavalry. For flanking medium cavalry do the job nicely and save money so I can have more spearmen

	29-01-2003 23:10									#24
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Yeah for a while there MP was spears spears spears........zzzzzzz........now there are still balance problems but it is slightly better.

	30-01-2003 18:06									#25
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Well I tryed the "Spears of Death"(tm) approach with the Italians last night, and I won all my battles ! I simply formed a wall of Spearmen, Italien Infantry, Feudal Hauptmänner(Seargents?) and advanced directly accross the field, with Royal Knights on the flanks (2 units of 20 that I got free with my sons) It works a dream, thanks guys (Grumbold & DrSpike) for the tips. My idea of a mass cavalry charge failed, and how, as I lost the entire royal family in one battle (Where else do you get those knights without combing the land for all the heirs - pun intended) That was a mistake, eh?

-Jam

Oh, Doc, you're right, its not RTS like C&C is, but I don't know what else to call it. I cam oly compare with Shogun, and MoO3 when it comes.

	30-01-2003 22:25									#26
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The royal cavalry are definitely to be kept alive at all costs. You don't get better until you work quite a way up the construction tiers. One of the most effective ways of winning a battle where you are outnumbered is to lure the enemy general into a trap and force him to rout. Killing all the heirs can be a nice way to finish a country too.

	31-01-2003 19:51									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, I just managed to lose my king and his eldest son in one battle last night, so I guess I'm still not protecting the royal knights enough. But the second eldest son had 6 feathers ! So there was a silver lining to my cloud. (I am right in thinking that the King affects the finances of the whole nation ?)

Is it possible to build units with less armour, when the armour smith is already built ? I want to launch a crusade, but I'm not looking forward to fighting in the desert.

-Jam

	31-01-2003 20:12									#28
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Regarding money:

Sea trade! From the very earliest moments in the game, start to have ships in consecutive sea squares. If you make ship-building a standard part of your build-up, you'll soon have more many than you can spend (literally).

The trick here, of course, is that you have to avoid sea warfare, and the only way to avoid that is to keep at peace for as long as possible (or until you've got MORE ships in place to defeat any enemy ships in a zone that disconnect your trade.

Many people make the mistake of having all this income, of course, just to drop to massive negatives once war breaks and they lose their ships or once they can't recapture a crucial sea square.

To help alleviate the inevitable sea stuggles, though, you've got to make farm and other econ. upgrades a standard part of your build process. This will ensure that no matter what difficulties at sea, you'll be solid at home.

This economic focus, in fact, makes the game rather too easy. I played my last game as Byzantines on hard. With a careful plan of not starting needless wars, marrying into my strongest neighbors, and keeping enough troops on my borders to keep myself from looking like an easy target, I was able to get sea trade in place, build up local econ, and start expanding against rebel territories in full force.

Then, of course, I began breaking treaties left and right as I was able to field the single largest armies on the globe. And even when I broke treaties, other nations were too scared to gang up on me.

Now, was this fun? Not really. In essence, I beat the game by playing the numbers. Victory of scale, let's call it, not finesse.

Needless to say, I used auto-calc on all battles after a few years. World conquest any other way would have taken months to complete.