27-01-2003 22:31									#1
	Transcend Economic Victory Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Has anyone reliably won a victory at the Transcend level by cornering the global energy market? The only way I've been able to do that was in a trival fashion -- when I was about to win a military victory anyway. Otherwise, I just about always win single player at the Transcend level with any faction (no matter what the opponents / settings). I've tried playing Morgan a few times with this goal in mind. I win (buy rushing Ascent at the end) but have only about a tenth of the amount I would need for an economic victory. Thanks.

	28-01-2003 13:50									#2
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Yes, sometimes. But not to often I lie to play with the drones and the hive so I mainly win by diplomatic victory after almost killing all player out.

But I have won by economic with the gaians but that was really late, so I got a lazy score.

	28-01-2003 18:39									#3
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Yes, but do you have a "recipe" for economic victory. I am looking for something to replicate. When you played as the Gians, how close to Transcend or military conquest were you?

	28-01-2003 21:13									#4
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I got a pure economic victory w/ morgan, where i didn't have a strong military might, but that was on thinker difficulty though...

	28-01-2003 23:43									#5
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Any faction that can't run Free Market really has no business trying to grab at the Economic Victory. Go straight for Transcend, you'll probably get there faster.

If you're serious about cornering the market, you've got to be Governor, running Wealth _and_ FM. Instead of building a science city (well, it can be both, I suppose), you'll be building a cash city. Make sure you've built the Planetary Energy Grid, and give your cash city the Longevity Vaccine. Once you've got Planetary Economics, put most of your bases in Stockpile mode, and watch the Energy reserves shoot up.

Don't forget to go Fundy on the turn you plan to stage your takeover, the +2 probe should drop the cost of subverting all those bases significantly. I'm not sure how the efficiency hit will effect your final score, tho.

To be honest, however, the Economic win is alot more trouble than its worth. It gives no more victory points than being Elected Supreme Leader, and takes a _lot_ more effort, imo.

	29-01-2003 04:24									#6
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Economic victory is for wimps!

	29-01-2003 05:35									#7
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Wimps? How so? Were you not listening to Aaron? It takes far more effort than any other method of victory.

	30-01-2003 18:50									#8
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron [snip] To be honest, however, the Economic win is alot more trouble than its worth. It gives no more victory points than being Elected Supreme Leader, and takes a _lot_ more effort, imo.

Thanks Aaron. The extra effort is kind of the point. Transcend and military victories I have down pat. I have tried the combination of all you suggest. I naively thought that Democracy / Free Market / Wealth / Eudomonia would get me there without the need to stockpile.

Now, since Planetary Energy Grid is an essential element, I guess I am talking SMAX instead of SMAC. So who should I select as opponents for this exercise?

	30-01-2003 19:07									#9
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How about: Gaians, Pirates, Zak, Fungi-boy - these do not tend to build too well equpied or too many bases, so it is cheaper to buy them. Miriam would also fit that profile, however her Fundy will make it expensive anyhow.
Maybe Spartans and Hive are OK too, but I'm not so sure.
Zak does build enhancements, but his negative probe rating makes it cheaper to buy from.

	30-01-2003 22:55									#10
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The biggest factor in costing the cornering of the energy market is having pacts. A benchmark game should have factions that are most likely to pact with your chosen faction.

I don't know that being Fundy, or otherwise improving your probe rating, has any effect.

What I know DOES matter is having the highest possible COMMERCE rating you can manage. That's why Morgan is the best choice for making the attempt (on account of his innate +1)

I think the differential between your COMMERCE rating and those of the others likewise has an effect...a monopoly on high end commerce tech(s) is useful.

Likewise, I think it helps to be governor.

	06-02-2003 00:12									#11
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This turned out not to be as hard as I thought. I am not sure what I was doing wrong the first few times I tried a transcend level economic victory, cause I never even got close before.

I followed conventional build strategy for Morgan and things went pretty smoothly. Maybe using directed research made the difference or maybe it was getting into Free Market / Wealth early or maybe lucky start.

I used SMAX Map of Planet (so I could count on exploiting landmarks) and picked human opponents that favored democracy or didn't oppose wealth: Deirdre, Zakharov, Lal, Aki, Domai, Roze.

My play was far from perfect (I didn't get Merchant Exchange, wasted resources building Energy Banks, and I carelessly let the Governorship fall out of my hands) and I didn't exploit supply crawlers.

Even so, I had accumulated enough money (less than 15,000 needed) by 2270 to Corner the Global Energy Market. I won on 2290 with a score of 183% which is a fair score for me, but considerably quicker than I normally win.

I was doing quite well, but I was a long way from victory by any other means, and I wasn't leading in any of the power graph categories (except, of course, economic reserves).

Thanks everyone for your help. If anyone is interested I can post the save files or a log.

	06-02-2003 02:04									#12
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Gaian cities are quite Expansive usually?
Compared with.. say Yang?
Also the 'Energy Market crash' comes waaaay to often when trying it

	06-02-2003 02:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Main_Brain Also the 'Energy Market crash' comes waaaay to often when trying it

Not if you turn off the bloody random events.

	13-02-2003 02:35									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Main_Brain Also the 'Energy Market crash' comes waaaay to often when trying it quote: Originally posted by Mongoose Not if you turn off the bloody random events.

1. Does the Planetary Energy Grid protect against this?
   
2. Does the Energy Market Crash impact all players or just one?
   

	14-02-2003 04:21									#15
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I tried a Trancend-game yesterday.
Playing the beautiful Gaia-Lady, I started up fighting agianst Spartan elite units.Mine were just 'green' and 'very green'. I just couldn't take out their 2-def units with my 4-off. And they just puked out tons of units. I held them at stance, but couldn't take the bases. An exciting war indeed! Meanwhile, the other factions built wonders and expanded...

Hmm, on Thinker-level it all went very well.
Especially when playing the Usurper domination game.

	14-02-2003 06:13									#16
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quote: Originally posted by bbailey

Does the Planetary Energy Grid protect against this?
[/QUOTE]

The PEG offers no protection against the crash.

	14-02-2003 08:16									#17
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In multiplayer games economic victory can actually be easier than in SP. I was able to start cornering the market around year 73 and win by year 93 in one game on account of my pacts with both of the other human players. Human players also tend to focus more on the beeline towards tree farms, making it easier to get to that level of tech faster. The cost of cornering the market was only 1500 credits for me, making it fairly easy to do with my income of 300 credits a turn at maximum cash allocation.

Economic victory *can* be the easiest to achieve in MP games, because it can be done much more quickly than any other victory type. If you are far enough away from other players 20 turns can be a lot of leeway.

Last edited by Hendrik on 14-02-2003 at 08:22

	14-02-2003 09:47									#18
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This is why you pact with the Morgan player early to exploit him while finding a partner to participate in the backstab of Morgan later.

" Hey, do you see all the credits he is making. Let's partition him. I'll offer you...."

	14-02-2003 10:40									#19
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick This is why you pact with the Morgan player early to exploit him while finding a partner to participate in the backstab of Morgan later. " Hey, do you see all the credits he is making. Let's partition him. I'll offer you...."

Reminds me of someone I know...

	14-02-2003 23:05									#20
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Reminds me of 20-century Communist Parties.

	14-02-2003 23:20									#21
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A couple of games ago I started winning econmically but I built 10 manifold doojamies quicker, so I could have won in this manner on transcend if I'd have gone through another 15 turns of superiority.

	14-02-2003 23:38									#22
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Whats a manifold doojamie?

	15-02-2003 02:02									#23
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Economic victory? What's fun in winning because of...money?

	15-02-2003 15:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Whats a manifold doojamie?

The things that you need to build six of within a size 10 base playing as the aliens in order to win the game.

	17-02-2003 20:00									#25
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Aha. doojamies. That was a new one...
I played Usurper alien once, and it was just a total conquest.

btw:

Yesterday I made it.
I successfully cornered the Energy market on Transcend, playing the so called the "Peacekeepers" (I had Aki Zeta Blondiegirl executed) Then I sold all my fusion labs and hab complexes, etc.
I had to, cause the price rose from 7000 to 8000 credits very fast!

	17-02-2003 21:17									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Hendrik The cost of cornering the market was only 1500 credits for me

1500 or 15000?
Pacts are the single most important thing for achieving Economic victory, as allied bases don't factor into the cost of cornering the market. A high probe rating does NOT lower the amount needed.

	17-02-2003 22:44									#27
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1500 sir

This was on a standard size map with me pacted to the next largest two players. This was with me beelining for planetary econ because I knew I wouldn't stand a chance against the other players due to my tiny landmass.

	18-02-2003 01:53									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie A couple of games ago I started winning econmically but I built 10 manifold doojamies quicker, so I could have won in this manner on transcend if I'd have gone through another 15 turns of superiority.

This has been my problem. By the time an economic victory was in my grasp, one (or more) of the other (more satisfying) victory conditions was quite close.

	18-02-2003 05:02									#29
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I agree with bbailey- economic victory is a wimpy way to win, use it only when excessively bored

	19-02-2003 01:41									#30
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I agree with that too.

But playing a Trancend game on a huge map, the aliens often gets very powerful very fast and eradicates some other human factions. In my case we were three superpowers (me and aliens)with missiles. So the economic victory was a kinda salvation for me. In such a case, use it once the Planetary Economy tech is achieved before the prices rise in the air.

It takes a lot of effort to commence a serious conquest on a Trancend game, playing against 2 huuuge alien superpowers building loads of missiles.