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Fried-Psitalon is offline Fried-Psitalon
Prince
Not just another pretty face.
Dec 2002
time: 00:25
  Old Post 27-01-2003 22:57
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Beating The No-Iron Blues and Other MP Problems Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Today I'm going to take a whack at a problem I see often in the multiplayer arena: What to do when your primary gameplan fails. Persians without Iron, Aztecs/Zulu without contact, Iroquois/Egypt sans Horses, and so on. I readily admit this is not my prime area of expertise- I make a point of playing "consistent" Civs; ones that do not rely on any particular resource for their prime strategy.

The No-Iron Blues

Sometimes, you'll sit down to play a map as Perisa, Rome, the Celts, or what have you, and the unthinkable happens- you finally finish researching Iron Working.... you can't find iron ANYWHERE. Or, even worse, you've found it, and your neighbor has control of it!

Do not despair, for there is life without Swordsmen. There's a few different tactics you can use to deal with this situation. The Wheel isn't a major research and as soon as you have it, you can check the Horse situation. If you have access to horses, go for Horseback Riding.

The Four Horsemen, or Living By The Hoof
2/1/2 isn't the same as 3/2/1, but it does allow you to do a couple of things better. First, you can cover ground quickly, and secondly, you can retreat. You may find that your Horsemen can hold a decent front since you'll be able to pull out injured ones in a hurry. Make sure your horsemen attack on their first move, if possible- so that if you lose and your horse retreats, you can get away! Horsemen also do one thing *much* better than Swordsmen- hit and run. If your opponent is bringing iron down a road, you can usually slip in with a Horse (move 1) and pillage the road (move 2.) It's easy enough to guard an iron source, and many players do- it can be much harder to guard an entire supply line. Notice how the road network is set up, as well. Is there anywhere you can cut the road, maybe after the first city? Better to use one horse to cut the road there, and deprive all but one city of iron, than to waste 10 horses trying to cut the line where it is guarded. The same rules go for opposing horsemen, and you should *really* seek to deprive your opponent of these, if you can - particularly if they ALSO have iron.

I Don't Have Horses Either, Friedrich. Now Am I Screwed?

You might be, but there is still some hope, particularly if you are determined. Remember the three ugliest kinds of terrain- mountain, hill, and jungle. A spearman in that terrain has a defense slightly above, equal to, or just below a swordsmen's attack, respectively, in that situation. Try to bait your opponent into fighting you on those terms. Remember that attacks where the ATTACKER must cross a river to attack you are also penalized. If you can sucker a sword-waver into meeting your spear-waver on a mountain, after crossing a river....yar. If you've discovered that neither Iron nor Horses are yours to possess, make a beeline for Mathematics. Catapults are the last argument of kings in the ancient era- and a stack of 10 or so in a walled town can really punish an attacker. 4 or 5 spears, some barracks and walls, two or three archers (for attacking heavily injured units), and a healthy garrison of catapults can be pretty fearsome to face down, especially if your opponent doesn't have swordsmen, and even if they do. What do you mean you can't get all these units built and to the front line? If you know you won't be seeing iron or horses, immediately garrison your front line towns- it's highly likely that when your opponent finds you resourceless, they'll take advantage of it.

Also, examine the usefulness of your Civ traits. If your culture is military, (duh) have barracks ready - you might also be a little more reckless with your units, since Elites aren't as hard to come by. Industrial Civs should have workers mining and setting roads for fast reinforcement times. Religious Civs....well, they can pray a lot, and uh...well, if you build a temple, the expanded city radius helps with scouting. Expansionists might send a few scouts around to check out what's coming, draw off reinforcements in a wild goose chase, etc. Commercials might have success planting many cities on the other side of your empire, since you have a larger radius from your capital before corruption really kicks in. Scientists...can probably calculate exactly when you will die miserably, because you picked a terrible MP civ trait.

If you can hold out long enough, longbowmen accompanied by your spears may allow for a counterassault. Odds are if your foe has really been pouring it on, you may even be able to break through and stage an attack of your own, to find weakened cities at the far end - it's HARD to mount a really strong attack and leave a very solid garrison AND keep up in research. One research after Invention is Gunpowder, and you should go for that; it may offer you a chance to cut down on your needed defenders. Musketmen are definitely a worthy step up from spears.

I'm Playing the Aztecs/Zulus/[insert Archer-Rush Intended PLan Here], and I Found Myself Alone On My Home Continent

Here's a piece of advice for any warmonger that loves playing the Aztecs or the Zulus, or just archer-rushes in general: Play a game or two as the Americans. Or the French. Or the Egyptians. Learn to build, and build quickly. If your culture specializes in "bumrush" tactics, and you can't use them, you need to be good at something else to avoid being left behind. That's the first thing.

Next, examine what your culture IS good at. The Zulu's expansionism allows them to cover area quickly and pick up goody huts- make sure you scoop up all goody huts quickly, and set your city sites with an eye to the future. Food supply good? On a hill for defense? (Particularly your coastal cities, which are certain to be first under fire!) Next to a river, maybe with some nice cattle or wheat nearby? If you're particularly brave (or you got the Great Lighthouse first) you can even dispense with most of your inland city guards, and keep a 'visual spread' (enough to watch all water incoming and no more, either by logical spacing, using mountains, and so on) on your coasts. Particularly with the Zulu, your speed will allow you to pull Impis away from safer areas to the section of the coast you see boats sailing towards. Since you've built lots of roads during all that safe time (you DID build roads, right?) your Impis can actually outpace the boats, and be waiting (or just blockading the land, if it's not Vikings) wherever they arrive.

The Aztecs can use part of that same strategy with their Jag Warriors. It may not allow for quite the same defense, but cheese-blockades are still viable, as is using them as a delaying tactic while your real defensive army (probably waiting in the center of your island) is moving in to eliminate the offenders. The Aztecs also have another bonus- they have the first two steps towards Monarchy already in the bag. You may or may not want to grab Map Making first to try for the Great Lighthouse, but if you're sure you have the continent to yourself- head straight for Monarchy! You'll pick up Bronze/Iron working that much quicker (4 turns each, very likely) when you do it as the God-King, rather than the God-Despot.

Most importantly, whichever Civ you use, it is important to have a standing flotilla of 5-10 boats ready at all times, if possible, on the likely direction of your foe, or if not possible, spread evenly. Sinking one boat means there's two units onboard you won't have to deal with later, and one boat that won't go back for reinforcements. Remember, that unlike the computer, humans know boats are best used in large numbers for invasion transport duty- be ready for LOTS of galleys to come, and use units and worker-outposts to watch for it! If you have a large invasion force ready on the land, and you still haven't run into anyone else, then maybe YOU should do the invading... and you'll already have 5-10 boats set that you won't need to waste time building.

Last but not least....

I Need Horses And All I Can Find To Mount Is...Er..Nevermind

Many Iroquois players have difficulty figuring out what to do without their cherished mounted warriors. Egyptian players, owing to the shorter lifespan (tech/obsolescence-wise) of chariots, don't have this problem as much, but still suffer to some degree. Well, first, check and see if you have Iron. If you don't, refer to the above post. If you do, play to your strengths. No, swordsmen aren't fast - so bring some workers along to slap down roads along your attack line. No, they don't retreat- consider a few spearmen to take the defense. True, you can't sever supply lines as easily- consider trying it with pairs of spearmen, and use your swordsmen to force your opponent's attention away from the (apparently) less threatening spear-pair. Whereas Mounteds and Chariots work well alone, Swordsmen work well in "Combined Arms" approaches- so use them. A catapult or two is useful for knocking down walls, even if most players will be agape to see Hiawatha or Cleopatra using them. Also bear in mind that your foe will not be expecting Swordsmen, and may have set up his defenses inappropriately (even if the problem is only a mental adjustment) for the true threat.

That's all for now. Feel free to tear into, add to, comment on, applaud, deride, or otherwise add something to this post. If you have a common situation you'd like to see discussed, feel free to drop me an email- you can find my email address on the main page of the Civ3 PTW (for all) Ladder, who's URL is in my signature.

Gunnar Thor is offline Gunnar Thor
Chieftain
Iceland
Nov 2002
time: 05:25
  Old Post 28-01-2003 00:28 Visit Gunnar Thor's homepage!
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Great job!

I'm scouring these forums trying to decide if PtW is worth picking up since I've practicly denounced Civ III after ANOTHER resource shortage (Great idea, too bad it's pathetic in reality) and your articles are great reading, especially since they have some application in SMAC and Civ II as well.

Gangerolf is offline Gangerolf
Prince
huuhh
May 2001
time: 06:25
  Old Post 28-01-2003 03:51
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well done, thanks. I'll certainly try that catapult thing in my next game

HolyWarrior is offline HolyWarrior
Prince
IL
Apr 1999
time: 23:25
  Old Post 28-01-2003 10:45
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I coulda used those tips earlier. I had a game as the Americans where I was stuck on a peninsula behind mountains--and no iron. My neighbor had some, so I attacked--then everyone I had contacted dogpiled me. A very short game.

Flandrien1 is offline Flandrien1
Warlord

Nov 2002
time: 05:25
  Old Post 28-01-2003 16:47
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Re: Beating The No-Iron Blues and Other MP Problems Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
If you can sucker a sword-waver into meeting your spear-waver on a mountain, after crossing a river....yar.


You may convince an AI to do this.
I doubt a human will ever do this.
I wouldn't.

MoonWolf is offline MoonWolf
Warlord

Oct 2002
time: 06:25
  Old Post 28-01-2003 17:10
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I like your texts, Friedrich. I think most people already share the same ideas as you, but it's very nice to have it written down. And as always, there are stuff that people haven't been thinking about. Like the stacks of catapults defendig a city! If a player attacks a city like that (and haven't read this post), he'll/she'll probably think there is a huge army waiting to counter-invade unless peace is made asap.

Fried-Psitalon is offline Fried-Psitalon
Prince
Not just another pretty face.
Dec 2002
time: 00:25
  Old Post 28-01-2003 17:58
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Re: Re: Beating The No-Iron Blues and Other MP Problems Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Flandrien


You may convince an AI to do this.
I doubt a human will ever do this.
I wouldn't.


Notice the phrase "sucker" someone into it. Some players, when they know they have iron and you don't, often become careless and certain of themselves. To be sure, when you're down a major resource, you're at a disadvantage and a good player will make you pay for it, but not everyone will be as ruthless and exacting in a winning position as a losing one. The object of this post was to give you things to do when you are in the losing position, and want to change that. Never underestimate the three most common human traits:
1) Arrogance
2) Impatience
3) Sloppiness


quote:
Originally posted by Moonwolf

I like your texts, Friedrich. I think most people already share the same ideas as you, but it's very nice to have it written down. And as always, there are stuff that people haven't been thinking about.


Thanks, Moon. Speaking as a teacher IRL, much of the time I find that when we actually sit down, take 'cherished ideas' and examine them they can use some improvement. So, this thread, which would as you say be more helpful to a beginning player than to a more advanced Civver (though let's not forget they read these boards too!), gives us a chance to peer at common "Fight back" tactics and perhaps improve upon them. It can also help to get one's own ideas down and in front of the public - when you have to suddenly prove and justify things you believe, some ideas wilt under the spotlight. I've learned something new with every thread I've written - and I hope others have too!

Flandrien1 is offline Flandrien1
Warlord

Nov 2002
time: 05:25
  Old Post 28-01-2003 20:45
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Re: Re: Re: Beating The No-Iron Blues and Other MP Problems Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
1) Arrogance
2) Impatience
3) Sloppiness


4) Greed

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:25
  Old Post 29-01-2003 01:25
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[disclaimer]I have minimal MP experience. My opinions are just that, and are based upon assumptions which may or may not be true[/disclaimer]

I think there are 2 basic responses to finding yourself without a critical resource:

1) Archer rush your neighbor and take it from him.
2) Turtle & build.

Your choice of civ and your neighbors should help you decide which.

For the second scenario (picking a "rush civ" and ending up on an island) there really is only one choice:

Full-on REX to cover your island, beeline for MapMaking, build a couple of ships and see if you can reach anyone (Great Lighthouse is a good idea, of course). If you can, yeeehaw, build troops and ships, and hit 'em! If you lose, so be it. You'll go out in a blaze 'o glory.

If you cannot reach anyone, well, you have no choice but to turtle and build. If the Vikings aren't in the game, you can probably make yourself invunerable until the late industrial age. But it will suck.

-Arrian

Swissy is offline Swissy
King
Chicago,IL,USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:25
  Old Post 29-01-2003 04:57
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Re: Re: Beating The No-Iron Blues and Other MP Problems Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by Flandrien


You may convince an AI to do this.
I doubt a human will ever do this.
I wouldn't.


It isn't that hard. In one elimination game I had a city on a hill with three sides river, it had walls and was defended by 8 Num Mercs and 4 catapults. The French and Iroq player lost the following at it over a 12 turn period:

10 Mounted warriors
18 Swordmen
10 Med Infantry

By the end of the game I had 6 elites and had gotten a great leader.

The funny part is that there was a square adjacent to the city that was guarded by 4 Mercs which woyuld haver allowed one of the players to attack without crossing a river. The Iroq player didn't even try to clear it until the last few turns of the game (we were playing a 4 hour time limit).

I see players attacking over rivers and uphill on a regular basis. My favorite was a Zulu player who kept bemoaning the loss of Impi who were attacking my warriors across rivers. The fun part for me was watching as he'd get me down to my last HP and thus not be able to retreat when his impi were down to one HP. He must have lost a half dozen Impi that way before he made peace and trotted off to atack anther player.

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