28-01-2003 10:41									#1
	Turnchat (1330 ad --->1340 ad) Report Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

UPDATED

A quick summary:

1330 ad,

Last SMC movements of 1330 ad turn.
Neo Leipzig founded.

1335 ad,

SMC moves preparing the assault on Heidelberg.
Traded radio with India (plus lots of money... ).
197 Lpt + 61L + WM + Furs by radio.

1340 ad,


Assault on Heidelberg...The city (pop 1, now... we're genocidal! ) is ours (one resisting laborer).
MPPs ended, thanks God!
Peace signed with Rome and Babylon (and some gold : 140 L from Rome, 23L + 6Lpt +WM from Babylon )
Radio traded with thRome, more gold.
128 Lpt + 134 L for radio
War weariness under control (I hope - I'll check... carefully...later... I'm tired... ).

Expected some decrease in war weariness next turn, due the peace with Rome and babylon. This could even change our queues (I'm not sure, but seems logical), what do you think, joncnunn?

Rushes:
Markets in Solace and Hannover). Neo Leipzig, Berlin and Neo Frankfurt can rush Cathedrals (~310 L each one, or so) this turn (not ended yet), other rushes don't are so important, IMHO.
Exception to Aidun requests: "Please rush police stations in Ghenghistown, Willsbury and Muncie. The unhapiness is at highest there."

Important:

We have just 1 settler left, and at least two spots to fill.


The turn isn't ended yet.



Presents at the chat (or part of it)

SMC Meshelic
FAM Shiber

Governors Aidun, dejon, donegeal, Kloreep (Acting DM, thanks a lot! ), Panzer32.

Justice Nimitz

Senators BetaHound, roadcage. (and a lot of inestimable suggestions and plans!), panag, CiverDan, GhengisFarb (with his proverbial sense of humor), adaMada (Executive Legal Adviser of Presidency ), mrmitchell, Trip, GeneralTacticus, Arnelos, E_T.

Especial guests: Impersonators of Sid Meyer. MarkG and Elvis.

If I forgot someone, please, forgive me.

Last edited by Aro on 28-01-2003 at 22:21

	28-01-2003 20:25									#2
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If our WW has dropped, I sugest finishing off Germany, and perhaps lowering some Police Stations below Court Houses in the rush priority list.

But the major queue shake up doesn't need done until we have a peace with Germany. (Either the permanent peace of Germany wiped out or else an actual peace treaty.) As long as we remain at war with Germany, there's a chance that they'll get the Romans to break their peace deal with us which would increase our WW back to what is was.

	28-01-2003 21:11									#3
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Thanks, joncnunn.

	28-01-2003 22:23									#4
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Mesh, could you post a report of the Heidelberg assault, in your own (rp) words?

	28-01-2003 23:09									#5
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We've made 6,978 gold (mostly in gpt) during this turnchat.
WOW! That's even more than I expected. Nearly 7k!!

You can say I'm satisfied.

	28-01-2003 23:32									#6
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Yep... Not bad!
Thanks for the detailed orders, Shiber. And for the Science Slider tip (yes, we've made some money from that, too...).

	28-01-2003 23:50									#7
	Got spare money?

Our ww neads to be analysed each turn taking action where required as in 1340. We now have 10% Lux, which probably will need to remain, rushed mkts and entertainers in two cities. These entertainers were used to avoid rioting. The mkt rushes will do the job next turn, so those entertainers can be put back to tiles in 1345. Our ww should be stable next turn because of failures in the 'Corps of Engineers' during 1330, we will likely have few german targets to kill in 1345.

When the Leipzig move was described by Aro, he listed certain tiles to be rr this turn, and others to be rr next turn. What he meant is the tiles that already have roads can be rr this turn while the tiles without roads need to have 'Corps of Engineers' (workers) presence this turn, so they can be roaded and then rr next turn. Well 2 tiles didn't get that presence. One of them is the tile directly north of Neo Leipzig. As a result instead of positioning our Artillery 2 tiles North of Neo Leipzig in 1335, which can fire on either Heidelberg or Bremen in 1340, we were forced to position our Artillery nw,nw of Neo Leipzig which can only fire on Heidelberg.

We pay the price for this little oops in 1345 because our Artillery moves in 1345 instead of firing from current position. Hence we will probably not assault Bremen in 1345, and the Brits may take Bremen. In either event, the number of casualties in enemy territory and hence ww increments will be small next turn.

Looking forward to Nuremburg, we will want to take it all at once. By this I mean pre-position until we are set for a clean kill. That way any incremental ww will disapear with the elimination of Germany.

	28-01-2003 23:59									#8
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Bremen is so marginal I'd prefer it if one of our allies took the city so that the corruption & waste in cities FP centric further away from Forbiden City than Bremen doesn't increase.

Let's just concentrate on Nuremburg.

	29-01-2003 00:29									#9
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I remember reading about another annoying bug that's related to rep hits: if you have an alliance against a certain civ, and that civ gets killed off, you'll take a rep hit for supposedly violating the treaty. You will no longer be in war with that civ, because it will be gone, but that will cause you to take a rep hit, as if you signed a peace treaty with the eliminated civ.
Has anyone else heard of this bug too?

If that's true, then the year in which this war will end, whether with a peace treaty or with the elimination of Germany, is already set - 1370 AD (when the last alliances vs. Germany end). Therefore, if we don't want to take a rep hit, we must be careful not to eliminate Germany any earlier than 1370 AD.

	29-01-2003 00:38									#10
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roadcage,

The English have a stack (2 vet inf, 2 vet cav) in the mountain E of Bremen. They will attack Bremen in this turn (inter turns) anyway, before we can do it.

If they fail, we'll have 2 stacks of Cavalry, one in the tile S, SE of Bremen (4 vet and 1 elite), the other (6 vet cav) in the tile W, SW of Bremen. The city is size 2, with walls (shows a German elite rifle). Our Army in Howitzerville is almost totally healed, and can be placed (in this turn) in the same tile of the 2nd stack of cav. We have an extra elite cav in Brundisium, we can use this one too this turn.

So, we have a total of 12 cav plus an Army, all in condition to attack next turn. Seems enough...

But all this IF England don't take Bremen next turn.
(crossing fingers... )

	29-01-2003 00:42									#11
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Siber, what if another civ finish the Germans before the end of our alliances against Otto?

	29-01-2003 00:52									#12
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The result would be the same (according to what I've read), which means that we may find ourselves protecting ( ) the Germans, most likely by enclosing their last city with troops, so that noone will be able to attack them, until 1370 AD ticks by... then, we devour.

Last edited by Shiber on 29-01-2003 at 01:05

	29-01-2003 00:54									#13
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Well, this will be funny... Protect the Germans!

	29-01-2003 01:31									#14
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I just checked on WW in my province, and I'm afraid I must report WW is back where it was at the start of the chat; the Roman and Bab peace treaties have merely bought us a few extra turns.

I don't think we can last till 1370; our government will probably go into chaos before then. Rep hit or not, I think we need to finish Germany, and soon.

	29-01-2003 01:36									#15
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I really don't care if this bug is real or not. If it is real, then we get a rep hit. I don't think it is because I have eliminated civs under similar circumstances, and the other AI's have always have still wanted my techs in the worst way.

Since we plan to win by space ship, and will surely make the UN, we really don't care what they think of us as long as they still lust after our techs, and bid appropriately.

	29-01-2003 02:04									#16
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I agree. We should finish Germany ASAP. A rep hit is preferable to war weariness, at this point.

	29-01-2003 02:13									#17
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Even if this bug I've mentioned does exist, a small rep hit really would not be such a big deal anymore. I'll explain what has brought me to this conclusion:
At first glance, taking a rep hit has two negative implications:
1. The AIs will be less generous towards us, and offer deals that are slightly less in our favor.
2. The AIs will not tend as much to sign treaties with us.
If we look at things closely, we'll see that these two negative implications don't really matter.
1. So what? In most to all recent trades, what we could have gotten for techs & luxuries was cut by what the AIs we were dealing with could afford to pay. The price that the AI could pay for our expensive techs & luxuries will be almost, if not always, lower than what they could actually afford, so effectively, a small rep hit would make absolutely no difference in this area.
2. I don't think we'll need alliances anymore, throughout the rest of the game. However, should we want civ A to declare war against civ B, we could always sign an MPP with civ A (which will be very reluctant to sign an MPP with the biggest boy in the neighborhood, almost regardless of our reputation) and then trigger it against civ B.

I advise Meshelic, if he's not doing so already, to plan to eliminate Germany as soon as possible.

	29-01-2003 12:26									#19
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I don't think we will take a rep hit for taking out Germany.

Why?

We are in a MPP with the other civs, not alliances with them. If we eliminate Germany, the MPP's will still be in effect. No treaties will have been broken.

	29-01-2003 14:15									#20
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Roadcage says destroy Germany in what, 1370?

Shiber says destroy Germany now!

Maybe I'll do it between now and 1370....

	29-01-2003 14:24									#21
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I don't think we will take a rep hit for taking out Germany. Why? We are in a MPP with the other civs, not alliances with them. If we eliminate Germany, the MPP's will still be in effect. No treaties will have been broken.

We don't have MPPs anymore. Ended this turn. But we have alliances against Germany (India and Persia, at least)

Btw, Mesh...

	29-01-2003 17:24									#22
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Oops! Sorry...didn't know. I don't have the game right now.

	30-01-2003 00:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Aro We don't have MPPs anymore. Ended this turn. But we have alliances against Germany (India and Persia, at least) Btw, Mesh...

No more MPP'S? Muwahaha!