28-01-2003 12:49									#1
	Election : Director of Social Engineering Got spare money?

Candidates:

Archaic
Pandemoniak

3 days voting time

	28-01-2003 15:31									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks go out to Cedayon for compiling and providing the comprehensive Socio-Economic stats below. They have been used with permission.

quote: These stats are as of the '35 save. First, how our people and environment would fare under the proposed economies: The format of the numbers is: (total pop)/(talents)/(citizens)/(drones)/(eco damage)/(specialists) I omit the specialist field in the regional and grand totals. Specialists are counted as normal citizens, in the specialists field I put the number and then the type, ie 2d for 2 doctors and 3l for 3 librarians. If there are doctors, and those doctors can be put back on the field without changing anything, I put (nc) in the field. I put (GA) after everything if there were no drones and more talents than civs (and the city's big enough to have a GA). In the FM column I marked if there were military units outside of territory that were causing drones, (1m) means 1 such military unit. (GA?) means I think a GA happens with those stats, but I'm not sure. The (d=GA) means a doctor would cause the conditions for a GA to be fulfilled. The *'s mean that doctor(s) and a remedy for the mil-out-of-territory drones would lead to a GA in those bases. code: City | Planned 50/0/50 | Green 50/0/50 | FM 40/20/40 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| New Apolyton| 9/2/7/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | 9/6/3/0/0/0 (GA) | TBIBTU | 9/1/8/0/0/2t | Same as Planned | 9/3/4/2/0/2t (1m) * | Tacticus Ac.| 9/1/8/0/9/1t | 9/2/7/0/3/1t | 9/4/5/0/18/1t (d=GA) | Antioch | 9/1/8/0/0/2t | Same as Planned | 9/4/3/2/0/2t (1m) * | R. Total | 36/5/31/0/9 | 36/6/30/0/3 | 36/17/15/4/18 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Aurora | 3/1/2/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | Same as Planned | New Tass. | 8/2/5/1/0/2d | 8/2/6/0/0/2d | 8/3/4/1/0/2d | Twin Peaks | 2/1/1/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | Same as Planned | Cyclops | 3/1/2/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | Same as Planned | UNMI | 4/1/2/1/0/2d | 4/1/3/0/0/2d | Same as Green | R. Total | 20/6/12/2/0 | 20/6/14/0/0 | 20/7/12/1/0 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Concordia | 16/3/11/2/0/2l,3d | 16/3/12/1/0/2l,3d | 16/6/9/1/0/2l,3d | Pandemonium | 9/0/9/0/0/3l | 9/1/8/0/0/3l | 9/2/7/0/0/3l | Term. Dogma | 9/2/6/1/0/0 | 9/2/7/0/0/0 | 9/4/4/1/0/0 | Sheathed Sw.| 9/2/6/1/0/2l | 9/1/8/0/0/2l | 9/2/7/0/0/2l | Valhalla | 3/1/2/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | 3/2/1/0/0/0 (GA?) | R. Total | 46/8/34/4/0 | 46/8/37/1/0 | 46/16/28/2/0 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| New Suez | 9/2/6/1/3/1d | 9/2/6/1/1/1d | 9/5/4/0/6/1d(nc) (GA)| Mysidia | 8/2/5/1/0/2d | 8/2/6/0/0/2d | 8/3/5/0/0/2d | Crystalis | 4/1/2/1/0/1d | 4/1/3/0/0/1d | 4/2/1/1/0/1d | Trans. Acad.| 3/1/2/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | Same as Planned | UNRC | 2/1/1/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | Same as Planned | R. Total | 26/7/16/3/3 | 26/7/18/1/1 | 26/12/13/1/6 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Zan. Gate | 6/1/5/0/0/1d(nc) | 6/2/4/0/0/1d(nc) | 6/3/3/0/0/1d(nc)(GA?)| UNPD | 9/2/6/1/0/0 | 9/2/7/0/0/0 | 9/4/5/0/0/0 | Deus Ex M. | 9/2/7/0/0/1d | 9/2/7/0/0/1d(nc) | 9/3/6/0/0/1d | Xanadu | 5/1/3/1/0/0 | 5/2/2/1/0/0 | 5/2/1/2/0/0 | R.Total | 29/6/21/2/0 | 29/8/20/1/0 | 29/12/15/2/0 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Ankh-Morpork| 3/1/2/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | 3/1/1/1/0/0 | Metropolis | 2/1/1/0/0/0 | Same as Planned | Same as Planned | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| G. Total: | 162/34/117/11/12 | 162/37/122/3/4 | 162/66/85/11/24 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| And a second table for the more economic side of things: The format of the numbers is (minerals)/(total energy)/(ECs)/(Research) Minerals, of course, don't change from setting to setting, but I included them anyway. code: City | Planned 50/0/50 | Green 50/0/50 | FM 40/20/40 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| New Apolyton| 25/16/17/18 | Same as Planned | 25/ 29/ 24/22 | TBIBTU | 13/15/26/12 | Same as Planned | 13/ 21/ 28/14 | Tacticus Ac.| 27/23/28/18 | 27/24/30/18 | 27/ 32/ 32/20 | Antioch | 15/15/26/12 | 15/17/28/14 | 15/ 23/ 30/14 | R. Total | 80/69/97/60 | 80/72/101/62 | 80/105/114/70 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Aurora | 10/ 4/ 2/ 2 | 10/ 5/ 2/ 3 | 10/ 8/ 3/ 3 | New Tass. | 11/ 9/ 4/ 8 | 11/10/ 5/ 8 | 11/16/ 6/11 | Twin Peaks | 4/ 2/ 1/ 1 | 4/ 3/ 1/ 2 | 4/ 4/ 2/ 1 | Cyclops | 4/ 3/ 1/ 2 | 4/ 5/ 2/ 3 | 4/ 6/ 2/ 3 | UNMI | 2/ 6/ 3/ 3 | Same as Planned | 2/ 9/ 4/ 3 | R. Total | 31/24/11/16 | 31/29/13/19 | 31/43/17/21 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Concordia | 19/17/12/23 | 19/20/15/24 | 19/29/18/26 | Pandemonium | 9/12/ 6/23 | 9/14/ 7/24 | 9/16/ 6/24 | Term. Dogma | 17/ 8/ 4/ 6 | 17/10/ 5/ 8 | 17/18/ 7/11 | Sheathed Sw.| 8/ 5/ 2/14 | 8/ 7/ 3/15 | 8/13/ 5/17 | Valhalla | 5/ 5/ 2/ 3 | 5/ 7/ 3/ 4 | 5/ 9/ 4/ 3 | R. Total | 58/47/26/69 | 58/58/33/75 | 58/85/40/81 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| New Suez | 26/16/16/12 | 26/17/16/14 | 26/24/20/14 | Mysidia | 16/ 8/ 6/ 4 | 16/ 9/ 6/ 5 | 16/16/ 9/ 7 | Crystalis | 6/ 8/ 4/ 4 | 6/ 9/ 4/ 5 | 6/11/ 4/ 5 | Trans. Acad.| 3/ 3/ 1/ 2 | Same as Planned | 3/ 6/ 2/ 3 | UNRC | 0/ 1/ 0/ 1 | 0/ 2/ 1/ 1 | 0/ 4/ 2/ 1 | R. Total | 51/36/27/23 | 51/40/28/27 | 51/61/37/29 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Zan. Gate | 14/10/ 8/ 8 | Same as Planned | 14/14/ 9/ 8 | UNPD | 17/17/12/14 | 17/18/14/14 | 17/28/17/17 | Deus Ex M. | 18/ 9/ 4/ 8 | 18/11/ 5/ 9 | 18/21/ 8/14 | Xanadu | 8/ 4/ 2/ 2 | 8/ 6/ 3/ 3 | 8/ 9/ 4/ 3 | R. Total | 57/40/26/32 | 57/45/30/34 | 57/72/38/42 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| Ankh-Morpork| 3/ 1/ 0/ 1 | 3/ 2/ 1/ 1 | 3/ 3/ 1/ 1 | Metropolis | 4/ 2/ 1/ 1 | 4/ 4/ 2/ 2 | 4/ 5/ 2/ 2 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------| G. Total: | 284/219/188/202 | 284/250/208/220 | 284/374/249/246 | ------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|

In summary...

Free Market : 40/20/40
Income : 173
Next tech : in 4 turns
Each tech : every 6 turns
Net research : 296.4
+2 Economy : +1 energy per square worked and per city
-5 Police : no police can be used, each military unit outside borders cause 2 unhappy citizens
-3 Planet : -2 production on fungus square, increase ecodamage

Planned : 50/00/50
Income : 111
Next tech : in 5 turns
Each tech : every 8 turns
Net research : 242.4
+1 Industry : mineral costs 10% cheaper
+2 Growth : +20% growth, makes a total of +6 with creches, ie popbooming
-2 Efficiency : increase waste and corruption, decrease cost of cities to be mind controlled

Green : 50/00/50
Income : 131
Next tech : 5 turns
Each tech : every 7 turns
Net research : 264
+2 Planet : can capture mindworms, decrease ecodamage
+2 Efficiency : decrease waste and corruption, increase cost of cities to be mind ctrolled
-2 Growth : brings us back to 0 (normal), +20% with childrens creches


I should note, all the above stats assume Demo and Knowledge. Demo and Wealth might also be a potential combination, however I have no stats for them at this time.



Now that the boring stats are out of the way, it's time to get down to the speech.

You all know who I am. Many of you disagree with my views, and just as many agree, though as for my methods of getting my point across, I doubt I'd find many people here who'd like them. Nevertheless, during this last month I've been meeting you on the ground of your choosing, the RP perspective. While my objectives still have a firm grounding in the game mechanics, I'll be providing you all with more of the real world reasonings behind them.

Firstly though, let me address any concerns you might have about my activity. Last term, by a miracle, I was elected as Director of Social Engineering. However, due to circumstances beyond my control IRL, I was unable to be online often, and thus was unable to keep up properly with the game. Something like that however is a once off thing. The chances of it happening again to me are the same as it happening to Pan, so I believe it to be rather irrelevant to this election. As for my not posting the knowledge poll, besides the fact that I at first didn't even recall it, when I did I was of the opinion that the poll was no longer relevant. It did not necessarily address the views of the citizens of the Demo. Game as they stood during December, but of how it was when our population was far more diverse. Perhaps I was at fault for not posting a poll on it sooner, but then, there hadn't been any discussion on the issue in the past month, and to force a snap poll on such an issue I felt wouldn't be right. There's also my limited ability to access the net then to consider. By the time I had the time to post such a poll and there'd been some discussion, the term was over.

Anyway, enough apologising.

It's no secret of the fact that I prefer a FM economy, and indeed, if you're voting for me, that's probably because you feel the same way. As for all previous elections, this looks like it'll be fought over peoples perceptions of the Free Market against Planned or Green economy's, so I suppose all I can do is address your worries about the system, and present problems you may not have considered with the others.

Firstly, let me direct you all to the recent economics poll.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...17&pagenumber=1
Please everyone, read carefully what GeneralTacticus and Cedayon have to say there, as it addresses many popular strawmans on the RP aspect of a Free Market.

Secondly, let me direct you all to the recent CNN Special Documentary, which has been causing quite some controversy.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=74816
That is your planned economy people. Can this situation be changed without changing the economy? Well, we can outlaw these things, but to outright prevent it from happening under any system, even with laws against it to prevent such loopholes, it's simply impossible. Anyone thinking any form of government or economy can exist without corruption probably needs their head examined. While the law at the moment implicitly allows this, it's not the law that's going to be the ultimate problem. It's the simple fact that people are greedy and corrupt. We cannot solve this under a Free Market, or even the efficient Green economy, but we can at least try and reduce the problem.

This is where the arguements really come into play. Which is better, Free Market or Green? Frankly, I have to wonder if it's worth even discussing the issue after what's been stated in those topics I directed you to above. All I'll say is this.

Ask yourself......which would you rather live in? Take a good long look at the rights afforded to you under both systems. Take them from a duty based perspective such as in the eastern nations of old earth, and consider which you have a bigger duty to. Your fellow people. Or "Planet". A "Planet" we don't even know is displeased by our actions. Please recall exactly what happens when we have "excessive eco-damage".

"Excessive eco-damage"
==> Fungus Growth

Fungus Growth
==> More Mind Worms

Well well, lookie lookie. Fungus Growth and Mind Worms. Excuse me, but isn't this a proliferation of the native flora and fauna in the wake of our "eco-damage". What was considered pollutants back on old earth seems to be encouraging the native eco-system.
Oh, but wait, the mind worms that spawn in the wake of the fungus growth are attacking us, aren't they? So therefore it must be that Planet hates us. Sorry, but this is just a Slippery Slope fallacy. Here's a more reasonable explanation.

The Mind Worms have just been spawned in fungus that's grown near our bases in the eco-damage wake. They need food. Where's the closest food source. Why, it's our bases, isn't it? There you go, one reasonable explanation.

Hell, as shown in the first of those links above, our eco-damage under FM would still be negligible anyway. Leaving the only negative to be police. Again, read that topic again. It seems more a positive than a negative to me, at least from a social and political justice point.

But enough of defending FM.....I want to attack Green for a change.

Growth. Does Green have this? Heavens no. Now...how many new bases are we planning to build? Many. Tell me now, can we afford such low growth for such little benifit? That rules out Green. Planned's already ruled out. To me, the choice is clear. Now it's just up to you people out there if you'll make that same decision.

	28-01-2003 15:37									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

And just another point regarding the effects of ecodamage - I seem to recall a text published by Lady Deirdre Sky, who is probably the greatest expert on Planet with regards to the native ecosystem, in which she stated that the lack fo carbon in the biosphere, and the small amounts used by native plant life, would mean that any large-scale emission of CO2 (which, you should remember, is a prime 'pollutant') would encourage the native life proliferate. Doesn't sound very harmful to me, as long as it doesn't cause global warming.

	28-01-2003 16:24									#4
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Ah yes, that would be Lady Deidre Skye's "Planet: The Early Years", which she wrote on the discovery of the technology necessary for Ecological Engineering.

	28-01-2003 20:39									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We also discovered Centauri : Empathy, thanx to a much more advanced ecological analysis written by Dr. Blake, that hasnt been sent to Lady Deirdre yet, AFAIK.

	28-01-2003 20:55									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i'll give archaic another chance this time

	28-01-2003 20:57									#7
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One question for Archaic: In what way would electing you have an effect on our chances of going FM in the next econ poll? In what way would it affect anything related to the econ (or other SE/spending) polls?

I direct the same question at Pan.

	28-01-2003 21:12									#8
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quote: In what way would electing you have an effect on our chances of going FM in the next econ poll? In what way would it affect anything related to the econ (or other SE/spending) polls?

Nothing except that I would carry out the will of the people. I am now finishing my third term -- well, two and three quarters, actually, seeing I resigned from the Directorate of Terraforming and Colonization -- since we arrived on Planet, out of five terms then. During all this time, I think I have been proving everyday that I was capable to carry the will of the people to our commisionner, whatever this will would be, and whoever this commisioner was.

While Archaic pretends he had not the time to post a poll about Knowledge, he had the time to post several polls about FM during the same week.
While he pretends he didnt know that people wanted Knowledge since there were no discussions about it, he clearly ignored
a) the three warning I sent him before I start an impeachment on himHe also ignores that this poll
b) the poll voted a couple of days before his election, clearly saying (about 80%, IIRC) that people wanted Knowledge.

On the other hand, apart from my resignation a week before the end of my term, due to what I took as a non confidence vote, and which has finally been voted years later -- the Reform of Governors, no one could quote an example of me ignoring the people.

The simplest reason to support me on this election is that I have proven my efficiency at carrying the people's will, while on the contrary, Archaic has shown his scorn for the people and their will.

Pandemoniak,
-- in They had a dream

	28-01-2003 21:35									#9
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ah one to think about.................

	28-01-2003 21:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak On the other hand, apart from my resignation a week before the end of my term, due to what I took as a non confidence vote, and which has finally been voted years later -- the Reform of Governors, no one could quote an example of me ignoring the people.

that left us without a DTC for a few weeks too. you resigned over the failure of an incomplete ammendment, when it didn't pass not because YOU wrote it, but because it was incomplete

	29-01-2003 01:10									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well... I wasn't here then, but I feel that Pande has been the best DSE I have seen while I was here, and has done the most unbiased polls I have seen. Therefore, my vote goes for him.

Go CCCP-STEP alliance

	29-01-2003 03:46									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Unless I am badly mistaken (and who hasn't been once or twice in life), all the stats posted by Archaic are the original work of Cedayon. No credit is given. This, in addition to the lies perpatrated by the "CNN documentary", is quite a character indictment. The act of scammery whereby Cedayon is not encouraged to post them himself but rather is asked to email them to Archaic is there for all to see in the DLP thread.

ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS- anything he has to say that may be of value is compromised by this goofballery.

	29-01-2003 04:08									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

that's why he said:

quote: Originally posted by Archaic Thanks go out to Cedayon for compiling and providing the comprehensive Socio-Economic stats below. They have been used with permission.

	29-01-2003 04:27									#14
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While TKG is right, in that Archaic did post credit to Cedayon, he does make an interesting point:

quote: Originally posted by lucky22 anything he has to say that may be of value is compromised by this goofballery.

I think this is sadly true, which is much of a shame, since he has a lot that is of interest to say. I do not see why someone who is obviously intelligent, and a good SMAC player, needs to resort to the styel of debating that he does in order to get his message across? But then again, this could be just the different idea's of debating we have. I have learned a lot from what he's posted, I just wish I didn't have to sift through all the insults, telling people why their wrong, where their logic went wrong etc. to get to his opinions and his arguments. Sorry about this, but I felt I needed to mention it.

rant over.

	29-01-2003 05:19									#15
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As TKG points out, I missed credit where it was due. My apologies, good until first flame.

*sigh*... at least it doesn't look like I've decieved anyone into voting differently than he/she would have anyway.

	29-01-2003 06:08									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Cedayon One question for Archaic: In what way would electing you have an effect on our chances of going FM in the next econ poll? In what way would it affect anything related to the econ (or other SE/spending) polls? I direct the same question at Pan.

Unfortunatly, probably nothing, as these positions are largely symbolic. All I can do is portray FM in a better light in my posts than Pan does, and attempt to post all the statistics in the polls before anyone has a chance to vote.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak While Archaic pretends he had not the time to post a poll about Knowledge, he had the time to post several polls about FM during the same week. While he pretends he didnt know that people wanted Knowledge since there were no discussions about it, he clearly ignored a) the three warning I sent him before I start an impeachment on himHe also ignores that this poll b) the poll voted a couple of days before his election, clearly saying (about 80%, IIRC) that people wanted Knowledge.

I do NOT pretend at all Pan, so enough with your political mudslinging. The 1st FM poll I did was invalidated because of the change in the constitution, and several of the others had to be closed because I'd accidently posted the poll incorrectly. In truth, I posted only 2 FM polls, including that invalidated one, because I had to repost the same thread multipule times because of a few simple errors. And it's not like I'm the only person who's goofed up with the polls.

a) I did not ignore this. I'd already stated publically why I had not started a Knowledge Poll
b) I do not recall this poll, and I certainly didn't recall it at the time. As far as I remembered now and then, the only poll on Knowledge was during October, when our conditions were far different.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak The simplest reason to support me on this election is that I have proven my efficiency at carrying the people's will, while on the contrary, Archaic has shown his scorn for the people and their will.

You are a lower class philosophy major. I am a lower middle class international business major. Tell me, who has more knowledge about government, business and society? And who has more of an ulterior motive behind their election? Your background clouds your judgement on these issues, and that extends to how you present the various forms of economic systems to the public. There's a big difference between us Pan. I don't lie.

quote: Originally posted by Drogue While TKG is right, in that Archaic did post credit to Cedayon, he does make an interesting point: I think this is sadly true, which is much of a shame, since he has a lot that is of interest to say. I do not see why someone who is obviously intelligent, and a good SMAC player, needs to resort to the styel of debating that he does in order to get his message across? But then again, this could be just the different idea's of debating we have. I have learned a lot from what he's posted, I just wish I didn't have to sift through all the insults, telling people why their wrong, where their logic went wrong etc. to get to his opinions and his arguments. Sorry about this, but I felt I needed to mention it. rant over.

And what exactly is wrong with telling people why they're wrong and where their logic went wrong? That's how you are supposed to debate. As for the insults...one can only take so much. I think you'll find I've rather cut down on them in the last few months.

	29-01-2003 06:23									#17
	Tired of ads?

quote: You are a lower class philosophy major. I am a lower middle class international business major. Tell me, who has more knowledge about government, business and society? And who has more of an ulterior motive behind their election? Your background clouds your judgement on these issues, and that extends to how you present the various forms of economic systems to the public.

* Maniac 's jaw falls on the floor.

	29-01-2003 06:46									#18
	Remove this text

I'll assume you didn't get the point of that from the implied sarcasm there.

In short....Pan IRL would probably be one of "the disadvantaged" under a Free Market, so he supports other systems, which give him a "better deal". Also, his background gives him little knowledge of actual eonomic or political structures. He's a philosophy major. He's full of good intentions....and I don't think I need to finish the saying there.

In my case, under a Free Market, I'm also probably going to be one of "the disadvantaged". In fact, I'd be living better off under Planned or Green economics. However, I still present the Free Market as better. Why? Because I'm not just taking myself into consideration here. And unlike Pan, I've actually got the academic background to understand these issues, and that extends to how I present the various forms of economic systems to the public

	29-01-2003 07:36									#19
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I had already voted before I saw the stats ( wonderful work Cedayon). So what does it prove. Swings and roundabouts. When you start fighting/ defending against other factions that -5 is a big penalty.

	29-01-2003 08:45									#20
	Tired of ads?

It proves a hell of a lot. FM w/ 20% Psych beats Planned and Green by a massive margin in tech, credits, and the happiness of our citizens

- 5 Police a disadvantage when you're defending against other factions? Bullshit. It's only a disadvantage when you're attacking, and quite frankly, the citizens have every right to complain about your warmongering. Establish a mostly specialist base with crawlers on condensors the few talents/workers on Boreholes and rehome every combat unit we produce there before moving it out of our territory. Problem solved.

And here I was thinking you people wanted to fight this on RP issues. Yet you suddenly decide to ignore them whenever they're convenient for you, as evidenced by the CNN Special Documentary. Hypocrisy.

	29-01-2003 08:54									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Archaic And here I was thinking you people wanted to fight this on RP issues. Yet you suddenly decide to ignore them whenever they're convenient for you, as evidenced by the CNN Special Documentary. Hypocrisy.

I also have reservations about what happens to people under a planned economy (and, to a lesser extent, a green one) but what could they possibly have done in response to a bit of fiction written by an opponent? There's no way we can find in-game evidence to either confirm or deny GTs allegations.

I am curious, though, if any of the planned or green supporters can give me assurance that our people would be allowed to choose their job (or if they even work, should they have another means with which to support themselves). Anyone?

edit: a job that they're qualified for, of course. The definition of "qualified" could be an interesting debate, but I think that at least could come to a conclusion.

	29-01-2003 12:54									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Cedayon I also have reservations about what happens to people under a planned economy (and, to a lesser extent, a green one) but what could they possibly have done in response to a bit of fiction written by an opponent? There's no way we can find in-game evidence to either confirm or deny GTs allegations.

Make a similar news story on the Free Trade zone of Terminal Dogma? Many of these RP things aren't supported in game as is anyway.

	29-01-2003 13:39									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Cedayon I am curious, though, if any of the planned or green supporters can give me assurance that our people would be allowed to choose their job (or if they even work, should they have another means with which to support themselves). Anyone?

By which means could we force them to choose a job ?

None, I say, while a democratic free market will allow them to choose their job de lego sed non de facto -- I like this Bakounian expression, of right, but not in fact -- a Planned economy would not force them to chose their job, neither a Green economy, for the simple reason that it gives us no way to force anyone.

My opinion doesnt change what I said before. Now lets answer to Archaics IRL guess...

	29-01-2003 14:03									#24
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Archaic Unfortunatly, probably nothing, as these positions are largely symbolic. All I can do is portray FM in a better light in my posts than Pan does, and attempt to post all the statistics in the polls before anyone has a chance to vote.

Thats it, all he can do is to portray what he likes better than what I dislike and post Cedayon's statistics. We're here voting for the person who will carry the will of the people, not for a system.

quote: I do NOT pretend at all Pan, so enough with your political mudslinging. The 1st FM poll I did was invalidated because of the change in the constitution, and several of the others had to be closed because I'd accidently posted the poll incorrectly.

As said by the Judges, this 1st FM poll wasnt invalidated because it has a clear result and was made before the amendment. The amendment wasnt retroactive. The polls accidently posted incorrectly doesnt matter, this happen to everyone, but it doesnt matter as long as it is corrected -- they were corrected, so it doesnt matter.

quote: In truth, I posted only 2 FM polls, including that invalidated one, because I had to repost the same thread multipule times because of a few simple errors. And it's not like I'm the only person who's goofed up with the polls.

you posted the two in a very tight interval of time, so you cannot pretend you were running out of time for the knowledge poll.

quote: a) I did not ignore this. I'd already stated publically why I had not started a Knowledge Poll b) I do not recall this poll, and I certainly didn't recall it at the time. As far as I remembered now and then, the only poll on Knowledge was during October, when our conditions were far different.

Thats why you should have polled about Knowledge when you've been asked to. The thing is that you ignored the petititon because he was led by me, and because you prefer wealth. I didnt hesitate to present FM with a 40/20/40 energy allocation, even if it was your petition.

quote: You are a lower class philosophy major.

Errr.... not really. I am a film student -- majored a few years ago, if i know correctly the education system you're talking about. I also studied drama structures, religious anthroplogy, computer programming, litterature, general history of art, history and political history. Moreover I am a militant (dunno the english word, dunno if it eneven exists) since I was 12. I also worked in a public hospital, emergency and ward, in several farms, growing from potatoes to grapes, not to mention directing films, etc...

quote: I am a lower middle class international business major. Tell me, who has more knowledge about government, business and society? And who has more of an ulterior motive behind their election? Your background clouds your judgement on these issues, and that extends to how you present the various forms of economic systems to the public. There's a big difference between us Pan. I don't lie.

The logic answer to that would be mean...

spoiler(highlight to read): Archaic is too young to be a director

such an argument is nonsense, as much as yours actually...

quote: And what exactly is wrong with telling people why they're wrong and where their logic went wrong? That's how you are supposed to debate. As for the insults...one can only take so much. I think you'll find I've rather cut down on them in the last few months.

Indeed for the results, I agree you quite calmed down -- newcame citizens cant even imagine how you were at these times... But even if the people's logic and the people are wrong, you have to carry out their will. Thats a democracy.

-- The people knows everything --
Mikhael Gorbatchev, just elected first secretary

-- Gorbatchev doesnt know a thing --
Vladimir Putin, when he was in the KGB

-- What exactly is wrong with telling people why they're wrong ? -Archaic, running candidate for DoSE

	29-01-2003 14:51									#25
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quote: As said by the Judges, this 1st FM poll wasnt invalidated because it has a clear result and was made before the amendment. The amendment wasnt retroactive.

The amendment was proposed because people saw problems with the poll, so obviously another one was needed.

quote: But even if the people's logic and the people are wrong, you have to carry out their will. Thats a democracy.

He's not talking about refusing to obey polls because he disagrees with people, he's answering Drogue's complaint that in order to find what Archaic has to say, he has to 'sift through' him pointing out toher people's mistakes.

	29-01-2003 19:45									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Archaic, your first post was pretty good and surprisingly nice. Tho I've given up any attempts to debate with you some time ago, now I'd like to tell you a few things.

I've really noticed a slight change in your way of conduct, but what you sometimes say is unacceptable amongst people with good manners. Drogue is right and I gave up reading your posts because I was simply tired of reading filth to get something about your actual opinions. But what's wrong with telling people they are wrong, you say? Well, that depends on whether you want to actually transmit any message to them or not. If you make people detest you they will not listen to your opinions. But I have an impression you simply derive a pleasure from offending people and you actually don't want to convince them to anything.

The next problem is you are the only citizen here who often forget that what you say is your opinion, not the Ultimate Truth of the Universe as told to Archaic by the Creator. Sometimes, eg when you claim that "you don't lie" on the contrary of Pande, I can only laugh. But it's actually sad. One must be very narrow-minded to claim he knows the real truth. The best you can do is to doubt in everything what you are told. In my opinion, that is thinking.

You laugh that Pande would be one of the "disadvantaged" under FM and that you have academic background about economic issues. I don't know how's about Pande but I can assure you that academic knowledge is not everything. I wonder if you know, if you fully understand what the real poverty is. Be grateful for what you have and don't despise those in the worse condition. Laughing at the "disadvantaged" (which I believe Pande is not) makes me really see red.

Oh, and as for CNN documentary, it was a great contribution to RP itself (good work, GT). But to claim it's "evidence" of any sort is a misunderstanding. Imagine that under FM I would run up a dreadful story about, let's say, slavery and were claiming it's actually happening... I can write a whole darn novel about abusing the people, but it won't prove anything.

Anyway, sorry for such a long post.

	29-01-2003 21:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak By which means could we force them to choose a job ?

Well, one system involves determining what job a citizen should perfrom, and telling them to do that job. The choice to not do that job is sometimes available (depends on the system), but that choice means they won't work at all. It's pretty much a "the government's way or the highway" sort of deal. Is something else happening in our current economy? What about the proposed Green economy? How would people become employees (ie they submit a request to the employer, or to the government, or do they receive one or more possibilities from the government)?

quote: while a democratic free market will allow them to choose their job de lego sed non de facto -- I like this Bakounian expression, of right, but not in fact

Meaning that certain people would not be able to get certain jobs? I'd take that as a given to the extent that someone without medical training couldn't be a doctor. Or do you mean that the poor would be "forced" by circumstances to work in low-paying jobs(perhaps in appalling conditions not known to the government) because they couldn't afford the education to become eligible for the better jobs? That's a real concern for me, but I'm very confident that we can solve the problem of this sort of poverty if we have enough wealth to fund educational programs and the appropriate infrastructure. There don't have to be any poor people! I've already gone over (in another thread) how all drones under 40/20/40 could be converted to presumably-above-the-poverty-line citizens. Or do you think there are still poor even in drone-less society? If so, point them out to me and I'll look into how their conditions could be improved under FM.

Sorry for rambling on, but I'm really trying to find the people you say will suffer under FM, and find out how to ensure the system will work for them too. FM = more wealth = better conditions for everyone if (big if) that wealth is properly used.

	29-01-2003 23:14									#28
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quote: Yet you suddenly decide to ignore them whenever they're convenient for you, as evidenced by the CNN Special Documentary. Hypocrisy.

No, we gave an RP answer, we don't believe it is true, and moreover, if it is true, it is not in our regions. I agree with RP arguments, however that documentary was propaganda. We did not ignore it, we simply said that we do not feel it is correct. That is true both IRL and RPing, as the Governor of Akiria, if I knew that didn't happen in Akiria, I would deny it.

	30-01-2003 07:25									#29
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As Dir of Peacekeeping Ops I can only ask for the units. How and when they are delivered is Alpha, DIa and Governors concern.

	30-01-2003 11:59									#30
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quote: You laugh that Pande would be one of the "disadvantaged" under FM and that you have academic background about economic issues. I don't know how's about Pande but I can assure you that academic knowledge is not everything. I wonder if you know, if you fully understand what the real poverty is. Be grateful for what you have and don't despise those in the worse condition. Laughing at the "disadvantaged" (which I believe Pande is not) makes me really see red.

...? He was claiming that while both he and Pande would be 'disadvantaged' under FM, he supports FM because he knows more about economics than Pande, while Pande doesn't because because he doesn't know as much about economics. I don't see any launghing at 'the disadvantaged' here...