03-02-2001 02:12									#1
	Dissappointed CTP 2 Player!!! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I had not played Civilisation since the glorious days of the Amiga and thought I would return to it by purchasing Call to Power 2. I was incredibly disappointed as it came nowhere near to the addictive pleasure I remembered from the original. Is SMAC worth a try or it does it suffer from the same A.I weaknesses as Call to Power 2? I naively assumed that a game with such development history and customer support would be bug free, have a sophisticated "realistic" and appropriately responsive A.I. How wrong I was!!!

I would be interested to hear the views of anyone who has played both.I know SMAC is available very cheaply now but I am reluctant to spend my limited gaming time on something that offers no real startegic challenge.

Cheers, Waylander.

	03-02-2001 02:31									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I thought all CTP2 players were disgrunteled...

Anyway, lets not confuse Civilization and CTP. One is Sid Meier and the other is, well, crap from what I understand. My disclaimer: I've never played CTP I've only heard the woes of multiple CTP players.

So to answer your question: Yes, the AI is a pushover at times. Yes, the game has bugs that won't be fixed. And Yes, it is thus far the best Civ type game I've played.

	03-02-2001 03:58									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I have played all (CTP 1&2, SMAC[x], CIV I, II) and my opinion is that SMAC[x] is definately the best CIV style game to date!

And, yes, you will never find a perfect AI (yet) but at least there are play by email and online multiplayer options that work in AC/X. At the most difficult levels the computer can put up a fight in SMAC[x], so I think you won't be disappointed.

Get it!

	03-02-2001 04:17									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm a dedicated SMAX player who got CTP2 because it was on sale (if I had seen the box I would have figured it was crap from the timeline, aeroplanes from 500AD to 1500AD?!!, but I got it mailorder).

I assure you the SMAC/X diplomacy will not dissapoint you, the AI leaders have "real" personalities, unlike the ACCEPTED, REJECTED "personalities" of CTP2 leaders, they can make semi good judgements (like surrendering once them are doomed to lose, not trading special project (aka, wonder) techs) the SMAC diplomacy is fun, unlike CTP2.

SMAC also has a detailed, dynamic plot which unfolds as you play, I find this makes it a much more interesting game and doesn't impact replayability in the least.

Yes, the AI can be a pushover at times, they do stupid things but they don't do really boneheaded things (like smashing dozens of units into a mountain fortress, altough CTP2 doesn't do that either) play on hardest difficulty and it really can be quite difficult to win, and once or twice the AI has really suprised me with it's tatical skills, like amassing an army outside of one of my cities before charging it in all at once, rather than dribbling the units in one at a time. And co-ordinated attacks between two or more factions on one of my bases, I admit I have seen such things only rarely, but atleast it shows the programmers TRIED, which is more than the CTP2 AI programmers did.

My only complaint is that SMAC has more bugs than CTP2, in fact I havn't encountered a bug yet in CTP2 (altough I've encountered dubious features, especially for a game claiming some form of historical accuracy). SMAC has bugs a plenty, but none game breaking and you hardly notice them unless you look for them.

The above was just a long way of saying:
CTP2 BAD
SMAX GOOD, buy it!

	03-02-2001 05:31									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

SMAC is basically a more advanced civ2 - ctp2 was the opposite. SMAC has more victory conditions, graphics, diplomatic options, and the AI is not as bad as CTP!It's alive! Santiago is satan!

Enjoy it, buy it, end of discussion



------------------
The fault lies not in our SMAC, but in our stars.
~ Vanguard, February 2, 2000.

	03-02-2001 05:42									#6
	Support Apolyton

SMAC isn't just a game; it's an experience. And it's also the only game like this that has such well built characters, I found myself yelling at the AI computer oppoents, preaching my ethics and mocking their obviously misguided ones.

Heh.

	03-02-2001 05:42									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've played 'em all, too, and nothing beats SMAC/X. Trust me on this - the different personalities/agendas/social structure makes the game infinitely replayable and addicting.

------------------
My sorry excuse for a website

	04-02-2001 01:59									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thanks for your replies. You've convinced me!!!
I'll buy it, play it and if you're interested I'll let you know what I think.

Just changing topic slightly, which turn based, single player game in your view has offered the best strategic / tactical challenge in recent years?

Cheers, Waylander.

	04-02-2001 02:42									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

SMAC is a wonderful game, with only one major problem. That problem is, unfortunately, the AI - particularly with respect to managing its economy. The diplomacy model is really good and the AI personalities are well developed - that is one of the game's strengths. The combat AI isn't great, with major holes, but it can surprise you once in a while too. Where the AI really falls down is in long-term management of its economy. For this reason I found the CivII AI to be a tougher opponent, not because it was better but because the economic rules were simpler and so it was more capable of staying competitive into the end game.

I hear that the AI for FreeCiv is really tough and does some tactically clever things, but I've never played it myself. But if you're comfortable with Linux I'd recommend checking it out.

	05-02-2001 04:45									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

What? That's the third or fourth hardly in this darn thread
[This message has been edited by SMACed (edited February 04, 2001).]

	06-02-2001 00:33									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Civ 1 and 2 were great. CTP 1, while it had some neat things, became very tedious; I just can't get excited about even trying CTP2. SMAC --- I am addicted to and highly recommend SMAC with the Alien Crossfire expansion pack. Also, get all the patches(goto firaxis.com) and install them in order.

The SMAC/SMAX opponents can indeed make the game very interesting/challenging! Certain opponents can even defeat you, especially at the beginning phase if you have the bad luck to land near them. As SMACed sez, Santiago can be quite a challenge. Miriam can indeed be a challenge at the beginning phase of the game. Yang can give you a run for the money. The alien factions in SMAX can almost too easily defeat you at the beginning and later (they almost seem too powerful if they have the good luck of being unmolested, so I hate even to play against them).

SMAC/SMAX makes time really zip by!
[This message has been edited by Mars_Col_44 (edited February 05, 2001).]

	06-02-2001 04:29									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm afraid CTP was just Civ with bells on. SMAC was the real departure. I bought both games together, full price. I have played a grand total of precisely 3 CTP games, and haven't even looked at it in well over a year. It's a bore ...

But if we are assured that CTP fans are "hardly" disappointed, then I guess I stand corrected. There are probably people out there who want less from a game than I do

	06-02-2001 04:42									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've been playing CTP2 since it was given me as a Christmas gift, but just ditched it and returned to SMAC/X. As Mars said, it's just too tedious. There were impressive innovations in CTP1 and a few refinements in CTP2, but it still plays like it were designed by committee. It really suffers in this respect, especially compared to the thoughtful, mostly quite well integrated design of SMAC/X.

But the worst offense is that CTP doesn't draw me in the way SMAC/X does. There's just no emotional buy-in. After two years of playing the latter, there are still surprises and challenges, especially with the possibility of playing against a new mix of opponents.

I'm really looking forward to being dazzled by Civ III (hope the expectations can be met), but in the meantime I'm happy with SMAC/X.

	06-02-2001 07:47									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

dp
[This message has been edited by SMACed (edited February 05, 2001).]

	06-02-2001 08:04									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Civ3 has to live up to expectations - civ1 did, civ2 did, alpha centauri did, gettysburg did, antietam did - if it didn't, it would be Sid's first messup.

Don't worry
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited February 06, 2001).]

	06-02-2001 13:20									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

above post edited to fix a problem with the code...
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited February 06, 2001).]

	07-02-2001 07:01									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thought something was wrong there

Thanks

	08-02-2001 00:58									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I 've played them all too, SMAC is the best, CTP series the worst. Can't wait for CIV3 though... I 'm sure it will be even more interesting from what we plyed so far.

	11-02-2001 03:59									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Blake:

CTP2 has the sort of annoying, evening destroying bugs which stop a game after playing half through by means of a reproducible crash. This ruins a day and is the reason why I don't want to play it anymore. Of what sort are the bugs in SMAC?

SMACed:
In your list of good Sid games you forgot Pirates! and Railroad Tycoon which I still play from time to time ...

	11-02-2001 05:57									#24
	Support Apolyton

I'm not going to buy CtP2 myself, anyway