28-01-2003 22:44									#1
	"Natural" Medicine Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok, in health food stores, many of them sell a variety of products that are marketed as being "natural" sources of enhancers or medicine, and then they use fallicious logic and false marketing by claiming that, because they're natural, they are completely safe.

A lot of people seem to buy into the idea that if it's natural, it's safe to consume or use. Ok -- so, poisonous mushrooms and poisonous berries are natural -- so I guess they're safe to consume!

And of course, the reason why these "natural" medicines are not regulated in the United States the same way as other drugs are, is because the FDA classifies them differently.

Some of these "natural" medicines that are being sold as being completely safe, can cause heart attacks, stroke, loss of memory, and other serious health problems -- oh yeah, and death.

	28-01-2003 22:48									#2
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A lot of the natural medicines you are so quick to dismiss as "poisonous berries" actually work really well, and continue to do so.
There may be a few on the market that are actually bad for one's health, but I have never encountered any. And I can assure you that natural medicines have far less side effects than most of the stuff issued by the pharmaceutical companies.

	28-01-2003 22:49									#3
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Everything is natural because everything originates from nature.

	28-01-2003 22:51									#4
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I remember reading an article about the controversy over "natural" medicines in a TIME issue awhile ago.

It had statistics on deaths from people using "natural" medicines.

And you're right -- there are some that are legitimate, but you have to know the difference from those that are quack products if you want to be safe. Unfortunately, a number of people don't use precaution, because they equate "natural" with harmless.

	28-01-2003 23:30									#5
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I like poisonous mushrooms. although I might be talking about a different type of mushroom.

	28-01-2003 23:33									#6
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"Natural" hah!

I also think its funny that the same ppl only eat Organicly Grown food. What the hell does that mean?! That they only used to organic pesticides?! Why? Because they're safer?!

Bull****.

All the ppl who buy into that bull is so full of it.

	29-01-2003 00:27									#7
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I prefer Loud Medicine.

	29-01-2003 00:30									#8
	Re: "Natural" Medicine Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok, in health food stores, many of them sell a variety of products that are marketed as being "natural" sources of enhancers or medicine, and then they use fallicious logic and false marketing by claiming that, because they're natural, they are completely safe.

They're not allowed to make claims either in advertizing or on the product label.

Some of these things work quite well. I'm a serious skeptic, but I have discovered that elderberry exrtact does a good job at stopping colds.

More people die from prescription medicine than die from herbal medicines.

Cyancide and arsenic are natural. They'll still kill you if you injest them.

Always educate yourself.

	29-01-2003 00:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Japher "Natural" hah! I also think its funny that the same ppl only eat Organicly Grown food. What the hell does that mean?! That they only used to organic pesticides?!

Shows what you know.

	29-01-2003 00:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They're not allowed to make claims either in advertizing or on the product label. Some of these things work quite well. I'm a serious skeptic, but I have discovered that elderberry exrtact does a good job at stopping colds. More people die from prescription medicine than die from herbal medicines. Cyancide and arsenic are natural. They'll still kill you if you injest them. Always educate yourself.

Ok, so the companies are not allowed to use such advertising.

So then where do fools get the notion that natural means harmless to consume?

	29-01-2003 00:52									#11
	Re: Re: Re: "Natural" Medicine Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MrFun So then where do fools get the notion that natural means harmless to consume?

Clerks who work in the stores sometimes but mostly from "health" journals like say, Prevention magazine.

	29-01-2003 00:59									#12
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Two words: Placebo effect

It also irritates me when advocates often criticise conventional medicines as working 'against' the body, whereas 'natural' medicines work 'with' the body. Hello? Never heard of vaccines?

	29-01-2003 01:23									#13
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Some "natural" cures do work, next time yer guts in an uproar,eat a bit of ginger (yeah, the spice out of your
kitchen cupboard ) about 1/16 to 1/8 of a spoon.

Been used for 200 years by millions of sailors.

	29-01-2003 01:35									#14
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quote: Shows what you know.

Que?

What do you believe "Organicly Grown" means? No pesticides at all? Only organisms? If so that is utter bs.

One of the most common organic pesticides used in organic farming is Rotenone. Rotenone is great because the LD50 for it is very, very high. You know what else they use Rotenone for? To kill fish!

Rotenone is also great becuase it's half-life in the sunlight is relativly short. Guess what! There is no sun underground! You know, where the water table sits!

I know quit a bit about organic farming.

Nothing about natural medicine.

Successful threadjack?

	29-01-2003 01:49									#15
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Heh, I'd like to see your reply to that one Che.

	29-01-2003 02:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Two words: Placebo effect

That doesn't affect someone who's skeptical. If I take something thinking it's not gonna work, and it does, there's no placebo effect.

quote: It also irritates me when advocates often criticise conventional medicines as working 'against' the body, whereas 'natural' medicines work 'with' the body.

Cold medications do, in fact, work against the body. The body has its own mechanisms for fighting off infection. These tend to make us miserable, and we take drugs not to help us fight off the infection but to supress our body's natural processes. Coughs, sneezes, fever, etc. all make us miserable, but also make less hospitible to pathogens. By supressing these symptoms, we can make ourselves more sick in the long run.

Generally speaking, people take herbal remedies for mild problems, but still go after the penicillin when they have pneumonia.

	29-01-2003 02:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Que? What do you believe "Organicly Grown" means? No pesticides at all? Only organisms?

No, I believe that it means a lot more than simply only that natural pesticides are used. It also has to do with fertilizers, harvesting methods, other methods of pest control (such as encouraging carnivorous bus), types of seeds, etc. Your statement left it at only being related to pesiticde use.

If you have a problem with Rotenone, you'll just love atrazine. Atrazine is one of the most widely used pesticides in the world. Problem is, it's killing off the world's amphibians (and God only knows what its doing to us). Even on top of the Swiss Alps (where it's not used), atrazine has been found in quantities of one part per billion (three parts per billion is the legally allowable level in US drinking water). In the Spring in Iowa the amount of Atrazine in ground water is 40 parts per billion. According to Discover magazine, there have been studies that show there is an increase in human birth defects among farm families who conceive in the spring (when most pesticides are applied).

BTW, organic farms use a lot less pesticides than their non-organic neighbors, even if Rotenone does kill fish.

	29-01-2003 02:43									#18
	Re: "Natural" Medicine Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Some of these "natural" medicines that are being sold as being completely safe, can cause heart attacks, stroke, loss of memory, and other serious health problems -- oh yeah, and death.

That can be said about most drugs on the market, natural or not.

	29-01-2003 02:45									#19
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The overuse of pesticides and herbicides is very concerning.

I am a stronger believer in pharmacology to provide us with the correct drugs. We can discover the active component, or develop a more refined one, or design one more appropriate to our needs. It strikes me as quite random...for the compounds that have a beneficial effect, you intake a large number which don't.

So I put my faith in pharmacology.

	29-01-2003 02:46									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Japher One of the most common organic pesticides used in organic farming is Rotenone.

The most common is supposed be a hoe.
That's cheating, why not use curare and ipecac too.

Organically grown cherries with ipecac for the supermodel crowd, yum yum.

Poison is poison, regardless of the source.

Some hippie should smack you corporate fatcat farmers about the head with his hoe for this.

Good Threadjack though ;D

	29-01-2003 02:49									#21
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quote: If you have a problem with Rotenone, you'll just love atrazine.

Yeah, I hate that stuff too.

quote: BTW, organic farms use a lot less pesticides than their non-organic neighbors, even if Rotenone does kill fish.

and

quote: That can be said about most drugs on the market, natural or not.

The point of the matter is that if something is labled "organic" or "natural" that really doesn't say a whole lot, and should be ignored.

In general "organic" or "natural" substance have a lot greater chance of creating irrepairable harm then do their "chemical" or "man-made" counterparts.

Your body is more likely to reject foreign bodies that are doing harm than other entities that are doing harm, yet the body sees as "natural".

To the same affect the earth is more likely to display immediate effects of a foreign body then it would of an "organic" body. An "organic" pollutant is more likely to take it's time to develop a problem, then, when it rears it's head it is too late to correct...

	29-01-2003 02:49									#22
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In medicine, the placebo effect does help some people...
do some of the natural medicines help in some cases? sure... are they wonder drugs? no...
do some people get better because they take something and think it will help despite the substance doing nothing? yes...

	29-01-2003 02:56									#23
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This has been downloaded 37 time(s).

	29-01-2003 02:58									#24
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I agree Sava... If it makes you feel better then go for it, your sh** will always stink.

	29-01-2003 03:05									#25
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Using the word "natural" or referring to other cultures is just a way the manufacturers of these products pander to people who feel left out by the mainstream medical industry.

BTW, I purposely used the words "manufacturers" and "products". In the end, these things are produced to make money, not to save you from the evil drug industry.

I agree with PH. I have no reason to believe that some naturally occuring compound is any safer or more effective than a more refined one. Humans can do better than nature.

The cold medicines Che spoke of are not targeted at the cold itself. They treat symptoms, not the disease.

Coughs spread disease, mucus provides a breeding ground for secondary bacterial infections, and fevers are generally ineffective against viral infections.

In the end, they just end up banning the ones that actually work (ephedra herbs?, creatine?) because they need to be regulated like drugs under the law.

	29-01-2003 03:10									#26
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quote: evil drug industry

Which one is that? I work for them, and I see nothing evil about most of them.

	29-01-2003 03:11									#27
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Well creatine is just a metabolic intermediate...people seem to fill themselves with the strangest things. I used to know someone who used to take so many of these health pills that she literally had to drink them all, half filling a 330ml glass and downing them with water. Seriously, that girl had issues...and she must have rattled for hours in the morning

	29-01-2003 03:15									#28
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Japher:

I was putting words into the mouth of a "natural" remedy peddler.

Whoever invented the new antihistamines (Allegra, etc.) is the least evil person in the world.

PH:

The point is that creatine works (trust me). Therefore it is a drug. Therefore it needs to be regulated under current US health laws. Ehpedrine is a stimulant. Ditto.

	29-01-2003 05:29									#29
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quote: That doesn't affect someone who's skeptical. If I take something thinking it's not gonna work, and it does, there's no placebo effect.

Nah. 'It' might have done nothing whatsoever, and you felt better anyway. If I started clapping every time it started raining, I might eroneously conclude that clapping constantly made it eventually stop raining.

quote: Cold medications do, in fact, work against the body. The body has its own mechanisms for fighting off infection. These tend to make us miserable, and we take drugs not to help us fight off the infection but to supress our body's natural processes. Coughs, sneezes, fever, etc. all make us miserable, but also make less hospitible to pathogens. By supressing these symptoms, we can make ourselves more sick in the long run.

Not all drugs fight the symptoms, not the infectious agent. That's an unjustified generalisation.

As Brizey said, coughs and sneezes are the germs' doing, not part of our bodies immune system. It's how they spread. Fighting these symptoms will at least prevent others being infected, which is arguably more important than curing one individual.

quote: Generally speaking, people take herbal remedies for mild problems, but still go after the penicillin when they have pneumonia.

I call them non-remedies for non-problems. The perfect money making scheme.

	29-01-2003 06:24									#30
	Re: Re: "Natural" Medicine Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Osweld That can be said about most drugs on the market, natural or not.

Wow -- give yourself a cookie, Osweld.


My point is that natural medicines are doubly mis-leading if marketed the wrong way. It can lead ignorant people to assume that natural means safe or harmless.

Other drugs don't have that same potential to mis-lead.