29-01-2003 00:14									#1
	Duration of partnership with Vox Inflate your Upload Space

Okay, I know we're in full negotiations here, but lately there has been a lot of comment on that the negotiations with Vox do not voice the will of the group. I can imagine that, as not everyone has said what he wants, and lonely opinions tend to get lost in the waterfall of posts discussing options.

So, a poll. Very basically, and everyone is invited to detail what he wants. For the moment, I'm going to have a few separate options:

1. No more deals with Vox
take them out while they are still weak. We will get behind on our expansion, and on tech, but at least we have the room to expand to without having to bother with Vox

2. short term deals only, for techs, no border agreements
Try to negotiate each deal separately, and let everyone Rex-race to get the best spots. It will most likely mean we won't get the best spacing, but if we focus on this, it is likely we get more tiles than with a border agreement.

3. short term deal, for techs and borders
Again, tech deals separately, but with a border agreement so we both can focus on good expansion instead of racing expansion.

4. middle long term deal
Borders, and a plan what to research, based on both our capabilities. After we get even in tech with the other continent, the deal is off, and Vox can be taken if the situation dictates that

5. Long term deal
We agree to have a alliance with Vox, with tech deals, border deal, and joint military conquests

6. indefinate term deal
Be together until the end of this game. Probably most unlikely, but it seems Vox is assuming that once we sign an alliance, it will be forever.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 00:16									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh, all other options are of course also possible.

I feel drawn towards either a short time deal with borders or a middle long term deals, possible with one joint conquest round (as their immortals are great to have as allies)

DeepO

	29-01-2003 00:17									#3
	Put an end to popups!

And last BTW: this only reflects your view on things now, in 10 turns we might need to re-evaluate things...

DeepO

	29-01-2003 01:45									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I voted middle to long term agreements, that will eventually let us take out Vox when it's comfortable for us to do so.
Such agreements will spare us the punishment of the REX phase, and thus will give us an advantage over most of the other teams, which will be competing over land with each other. There are many other pros to this option, but right now I'm too tired to list any more (going to sleep in a few minutes).

	29-01-2003 02:32									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with Shiber. It may be in our best interests for the time being to play "nice" with them, and then crush them when the opportunity arises.....

	29-01-2003 03:33									#6
	Put an end to popups!

I agree with Shiber as well- a border deal plus an organized research partnership for the ancient age (or something like that) is the way to go:
1)A comfortable REX phase- will be employed better by our economists, as opposed to Vox's mad rush on the food rich albeit corrupted northern city sites. (see the road they've built for it...)

2) Decent amount of land (must be rough on Vox though, something Like 15-11 city ratio)

3) As Mesh pointed out- gives us a time to plan for the assualt (although Vox mustn't suspect it) the excuse won't be hard to find, given how Vox views its own reasons. Something like: "we were afraid that now you were about to ally with Lux and the rest against us" or some other silly reason.

On this note- i think that Vox is just the type of team to be bought- by other teams against us, or even by us after we take them.

	29-01-2003 04:07									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Keep in mind that if we set a more-or-less definite end date on a partnership with Vox, they'll almost certainly expect us to turn on them when that date comes. Given their character and past behavior, I think trying to arrange a partnership that is stable but not permanent would be highly problematical. If you were Vox, how would you feel about a partnership where GS wanted to keep you around while you're useful to them but would then feel free to get rid of you?

	29-01-2003 04:31									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Nathan, that's not really the problem. We know what we want, and can always explain it as the level of trust we have at a certain amount in them. This basically defines our secret agenda, but playing honorably, we must know this in advance before we go about breaking long term alliance... I'd rather to things one step at a time.

Even if Vox suspects or knows that we stop our alliance (which not excludes friendship) once we both get into the middle age for example, that is not necesarily a reason for them to not agree. They can use the time to either prepare, or try to negotiate other deals with us, prolonging the time of peace. I just never want to come in the situation were we have to break treaties, because it serves us better, or the opinions of the group have changed.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 05:21									#9
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I agree with Nathan's sense of the views of Vox. It would be better to discuss 'indefinite' friendship.

That does not guarantee forever, but also does not set their minds to calculating 'what then?'.