08-02-2001 14:41									#1
	Help needed against Morgan Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

My current game looks like I am going to loose, despite I am number 1 in power graph (Morgan is 2, Roze 3).
I am playing one of my custom factions (+1 science, +1 morale, -1 econ, -1 probe), double blind research, huge random map.
I am pacted with Roze and in vendetta with all other factions.
I am only number 3 in tech, after Morgan and Roze.

My problem is this: Morgan has grabbed nearly all important SP,s and he is on a continent W to my continent, and between us is only a narrow channel of sea.
And of course, of me running green or planned, he declared vendetta to me.
He sends waves of Choppers and needlejets to kill all my formers and crawlers, and this time, the AI does this in a very clever way, giving his choppers cover with interceptors and such things. Morgan has both cyborg factory and cloudbase academy, so his airforce are all elite and have longe range and can attack my whole territory. And my interceptors are not very succesful against Morgans elite airforce.
The loss of my formers and crawlers did much harm to my development and my science (had a nice energy park on Mount Planet, but now it's all gone), and I see no chance to reach Morgan or Roze in tech. And as I know Roze, she will sooner or later cancel the pact, and then I have real trouble.

So far, as I see no chance to get the tech lead, the only way to win seems to be building hords of crawlers and wait for Morgan or Roze building the Voice of Planet. But even armored crawlers would be easy prey for Morgans elite airforce.

Things I had thought of:

1. Changing SE to fundy/might to boost the morale of my troops. But this would harm my science rate even more.

2. Gassing or planetbustering Morgan. Seems very dangerous to me, because all important base are in PB of Morgan as well as Roze. I fear I would get a PB in return.

3. I have one crappy sea base conquered from Morgan in the channel between us. I am thinking of giving it to Roze to involve her in the war with Morgan, but I am afraid she will use it as a bridgehead against me later in the game.

4. Trying to build armored formers and crawlers for building bunkers on mine squares, and then put a additional AAA-garrison and an armored crawler on the mine/bunker squares. But this would be very expensive and could even fail.

So I would be very thankful if someone has ideas what to do in a situation like mine.

	08-02-2001 15:52									#2
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Likes attract likes....switch to Market, and do not go on the offensive against Morgan if he's beating you. Contact him and offer to give him the base you captured back. Roze will also not mind your Market stance, and Morgan's an easy one to bribe away from attacking you.

Once at peace, do nothing but rebuild your formers and crawlers, and very soon, you'll be back in business. Stay friendly with them till you pass 'em in tech, and blow them off the map....

-=Vel=-
PS: At present, with you being number one in the power chart, Morgie will NOT accept your surrender, so wallow around a while till you begin to "drop" in the power charts....there are numerous threads here and about describing "pretending to be weak." Do that until you've dropped a bit in the power standings....pretend you're utterly crippled....still able to fight a nasty defensive action if he chooses to press it, but in no position to take the offensive (which is true, from the sounds of it). Do that until you're in a position to wrangle a surrender....and perhaps even prop one of Morgan's likely enemies up and/or goad them into war....force Morgie's attention elsewhere....

-V.
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited February 08, 2001).]

	08-02-2001 18:02									#3
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Vel!
Thanks for Your tips!

I haven't thought of changing to FM, because I always have difficulties playing this SE choice.

But I will give it a try, I haven't much to loose.
Hope it will not hurt the rest of my airforce to much, I haven't build a punishment sphere.
But perhaps, abandoning my airforce would decrease me in powergraph, getting Morgan number 1 and Roze number 2 :-).

	08-02-2001 20:12									#4
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Another trick to consider to shoot down those planes, instead of using interceptors of your own, build a bunch of -1-2 (SAM rovers), these guys will shoot down any plane or chopper without breaking a sweat.

AI will never attack a well defended base (except with PB), so you could build a good invasion force and just storm Morgan... Just devote all your strength to military buildup: Combined arms is the key: Choppers, interceptors, garrisons (matching AI attack capabilities, eg. AAA, ECM), attack troops (rovers, worms - esp if you're green) etc.

Aredhran

PS: (Sorry Vel, but I just can't play meek when fighting the AI )

PPS: Funny how I'm usually a builder type, but SMAC just forces me to attack everytime

	09-02-2001 01:15									#5
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1) What's been your current strategy? What sort of victory are you going for?

2) You're pacted with Roze and Vandetta against all others. Not good, cause this probably means Morgan is pacted or treatied with everyone against you. This means he's raking in the money. Switch to fundy, and probe to frame other factions to turn them against him. Not only will this expand his military front, it will also greatly decrease his income.

3) After this go dem/FM and follow what Vel said. Rebuild infrastructure, make friends, build up defenses.

I've won a game before as the CC by transcending while in third place. How you ask? I stayed in third place most of the game. Was pacted with #2, 4, 5 and 6. Five and six were submissive. I had a small amount of territory, which led to a lower population (compared to #1&2). I had virtually no military, just really good defenders at each base, and constantly upgraded them as tech progressed. I was first in tech, but otherwise not even on the charts. I gave my subs tech and money and military units and made them fight the war with #1. I sat by the wayside terraforming, building crawlers, gaining mass tech, but looking like a wimp. Cashed in crawlers and formers and transcended.

Thing is, this was my strategy the whole game.

	09-02-2001 06:16									#6
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I hate shooting down penetrators with inteceptors or sam rovers. I will have a couple just in case I screw up, but I always try to kill their airforce while it is on the ground!

If Morgans interceptors are elite, then it probably takes 2 of your interceptors to kill one of his. It is less costly mineral-wise, to use penetrators, and make his interceptors scramble. Then kill his garrison with a penetrator, and then kill all his noodles with choppers (even if you have to ditch the chopper)

Keep an eye on the bases he has within your range (you do have him infiltrated, right?), and kill the noodles before they can take off and do any dammage.

And probe, probe, probe! If he is using probe garrisons, then 1st empty the base as above, then probe.

	09-02-2001 13:54									#7
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I followed Vel's tips and changed to FM....and lost.

First, it looked good. I had to abandon most of my airforce (hadn't tech to build punishment spheres), but build some SAM-Rovers which get Morgans airforce under control and made at least the eastern part of my territorry safe. I concentrated on infrastructure and started rebuilding my crawler park.
I decreased to number 2 in power graph, but couldn't get down to number 3, because Roze was also decreasing.
So I couldnÄt make peace with Morgan.

But then, it took a fast end. Morgan landed at my coast with a lot of troops and played D-Day, with me in the role of the Germans. Without any airforce, I couldn't kill his transport. He landed with a bunch of 13-6-marines and gave them air-cover.
When he bribed away a pop-11-base the next turn like it was nothing, I had enough and quitet.

Changing to FM definitely was no good idea, because it killed my defense ability.

	09-02-2001 19:00									#8
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You could have operated your army in FM without punishment spheres. You said you had crawlers (or the tech for it at least). So, pick some cities for army support, rehome there all your air-force and attack units, turn all workers to specialists and feed the city by supply crawlers (you also need crawlers for minerals to be able to pay the support costs). That way you have no drones!

	09-02-2001 21:19									#9
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Free Market does really rock, but Zzo and Vel are right that you have to tweak things a bit. If you try and run it straight up and at war you're in trouble.
My problem with using it late game has always been the phantom drone bug that seems to happen even in bases with facilities to take care of it.

BTW why was Morgan so hostile....had you done something early game....atrocities? I guess sometimes factions just hate you from the start, but usually Miriam\Yang not Morgan.

	09-02-2001 21:44									#10
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Skand,

Looks like you were between a rock and a hard place.

Was Morgan completely unreasonable to negotiations i.e. wouldn't even talk to you. If so you may have been able to get him to the bargaining table by retaking your subverted base. If memory serves I think your cost to subvert it back should be significantly less especially if you made a choice of Fundy. Normally once a faction takes some losses they'll come to the bargaining table and if running FM he should be amenable to a lasting peace agreement (this all assumes like others have said that you didn't at one time commit atrocities towards him).

He was picking off your crawlers and your formers. Not so good. On theone hand that shows that eventhe AI with effective air power can do damage. I faced this a few times before but normally never having air power coordinated with air superiority fighter types. Interesting how one gets passed the fighter type to get to the choppers. I remember one of the challenges I had was a no former game challenge wherein I was Dee and was being mercilessly pounded by Yang's air force at an equivalent or higher tech level than I was whilst fending off amphib landings by Miriam. Same kinna deal, crawlers go poof, industry dries up, and I had to crawl back from the stone age. I found I had to strategically make my responding force inthe part of my empire that was outside his range and then pounce all at once. Fall back and regroup and repeat ad-nauseum. I was forced in that game to go scorched earth 'gainst him and use nerve gas if only to wipe out nearest base sites so that the AI couldn't reach me. Once the immediate bases were eliminated then I could plan my invasion. Since I atrocitied him it made for a long game until I was able to land a Normandy force establish my beachhead and plan my breakout.

OTOH Maybe.... SAM capable Arty wounding both units. Best weapon/ best reactor infantry unit goes out and self destructs hopefully taking out two units for the price of a relatively cheap infantry unit. Better solutionof course is the one made earlier 'bout taking the offense to him rather than having to respond but this may not have been an option.

One last question when you made the decision to get rid of your airforce I assume you were able to disband at base sites for some mineral benefit, correct?

Og

	11-02-2001 23:30									#11
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zsozso:

Your suggestion was only theoretically possible: Morgan had killed ALL my crawlers, not a single left. So no possibility to build up a specialist only base before getting air superiority over my territorry again.
And Morgans invasion came to early.

Stuntman and Ogie:

I hadn't done any atrocities to Morgan, no use of nerve gas agains him. We had an early war, in which I conquered the sea base in the channel between us. Then we made treaty. Sometimes after I had changed to Green,
he demanded 325 energy, I said no and he declared vendetta.
From then on, he refused to communicate, so I couldn't offer him his base back.

"One last question when you made the decision to get rid of your airforce I assume you were
able to disband at base sites for some mineral benefit, correct?"

Of course.

	13-02-2001 00:36									#12
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I think that by the time Morgan killed all your crawlers, you were already in too deep to dig your way out.

If an AI starts killing my crawlers with air units, I always make sure it pays for it. Sure, I may lose a crawler, but the needlejet that killed it is going to be shot down by my SAM rover or interceptor immediately thereafter. Even with the AI's industry bonuses, it's very rare that an AI can afford to trade needlejets for my crawlers on a long-term basis. Once the AI has wasted its air force on my crawlers, it's vulnerable -- my own needlejets can go on the offensive against its bases, emptying them. Then I can choose where and when to invade. (Usually the AI will be quite interested in peace after a single base gets conquered, under these conditions.)

Oh, and try to avoid letting the AI get the Cloudbase Academy. If the AI does get it, take that city, by any means necessary. If the AI beats you to MMI, probe the tech from it, and build the Cloudbase before it can. (If the AI has MMI and you don't have Planetary Networks... well, you're dead anyway.)