29-01-2003 21:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Winston That's a bit like saying if there were no banks, there'd be no bank robberies.

Except that relating banks to state-sanctioned homicide is a pretty bad comparison. It is one of many valid reasons why I oppose the death penalty, which is the celebrity-like status it often gives to the criminal. Locking up the bastard forever would have caused far less of a stir. I doubt anyone outside of Philly would ever have heard of him if that were the case.

	29-01-2003 21:13									#32
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It might be a pretty bad comparison, but the logic you're using is the same as in the bank analogy. At least the way I see it.

Besides, some convicted criminals not under the sentence of death have become celebrities regardless.

But of course, that wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been convicted.

	29-01-2003 21:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It is time for Mumia to be executed.

Killing is too good for him. I prefer that he suffer decades longer.

	29-01-2003 22:20									#34
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Most of you guys here are fascists. Another man has confessed to the crime and you wont even give the accussed another trial. That's sick.

	29-01-2003 23:01									#35
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DuncanK, I refer you to JonMillers post about how he killed JFK.

	29-01-2003 23:20									#36
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Saras,

Ok, well I'm convinced then, not!

Most of you people just have no idea of how a black man can be made out to be guilty of a crime when he's innocent.

I looked at the website that you guys put up here. I looked at the 'facts' of the case. The first 'fact' was that mumia was a political activist. While this does jack **** to show any guilt at all I'm not suprised that they put this crap up.

The second 'fact' of Mumias guilt is eyewitness account. When you are in the public eye like Mumia was and you say things that will piss people off people are bound to say they saw you do everything regardless of whether they saw you or not.

One thing that I've noticed about this case is that if you think Mumia is guilty, then there is not a doubt in your mind that he is guilty. You think the system works for everyone, and all that crap.
Most of the reasonable people know that the system doesn't work for **** for a person like Mumia. We don't say that he is definitely innocent. We just say that the system doesn't work for **** for him because so many people hate him, and the system depends on these people. Therefore we want to see more than eyewitness account. And if there is eyewitness account of his innocence we want a new trial.

	29-01-2003 23:23									#37
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I knew a snevelling leftist would show up to spout his revisionist nonsense sooner or latter. Thanks for not disappointing Duncan.

BTW It is not that we think the system works perfectly for everyone it is that we, unlike you, do not think it is broken with everyone. The courts have reviewed your supposed new evidience on numerous occasions and, after all the appeals and finger pointing, they have determined it all to be nonsense.

It is time for Mumia to pay the price for murdering Officer Faulkner. He's spent two decades trying to prevent justice being done. He's had his day in court so many times over the last twenty years that it is a joke. Now it is time for the sentence to be carried out.

	29-01-2003 23:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Most of you guys here are fascists. Another man has confessed to the crime and you wont even give the accussed another trial. That's sick.

Too stupid to live. I will bet he has not even looked at any original source court docments, just web site BS.

	29-01-2003 23:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Too stupid to live. I will bet he has not even looked at any original source court docments, just web site BS.

You truly scare me.

	29-01-2003 23:51									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin BTW It is not that we think the system works perfectly for everyone it is that we It is time for Mumia to pay the price for murdering Officer Faulkner

If you know the system doesn't work how can you support the death penalty?

	29-01-2003 23:56									#41
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DuncanK, I am a leftist and opposed to the DP, but Mumia has been proven guilty, IMO. Have you any specifics of the case to refute? You say the system doesn't work in a general way, which I would agree with, but in this instance I see not a shred of evidence that it didn't work. The hitman who "confessed" to the crime, if you read the account, contradicts everyone else who was there, even Jamal's own witnesses from the original trial. His story doesn't hold water, which is why Jamal's lawyers didn't want to bring him forward.

And why do you trust a guy who blatanly lied about receiving a Peabody Award and being a journalist?

	29-01-2003 23:58									#42
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I believe the system is almost, but not quite, perfect. In short it is as near to perfect as we humans can make it. The facts of this case are very clear; the jury, numerous appeals court judges, countless judicial reviews have all looked at the facts and EVERY single last one of them have all come to the same conclusion.

He did the crime now he needs to pay the price. No more stalling, no more lies, no more delay tactics.

	30-01-2003 00:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Too stupid to live.

What some of you don't understand is the possiblity that a person like Lefty here could be involved in establishing the guilt of Mumia. And that is why the system doesn't work.

	30-01-2003 00:05									#44
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If I found a cop beating Theben and I had a gun on me, you better believe I'd threaten to shoot him. If he shot me, I'd start shooting back.

It's not really a matter of whether or not Jamal is guilty in my mind (especially since he fired the best lawyers he had) but whether or not it was justifiable homocide.

Additionally there is strong evidence of police threatening witnesses, judical bias, etc. All of this the lawyers have tried to present, but since the original judge who heard the case presided over the hearings, nothing ever got in, even when witnesses changed their testimony.

Did he do it? Probably. Was he justified? Up to a point (the evidence indicates Faulkner was killed while lying on the ground, after the initial exchange fo fire). Did he get a fair trial? No.

Just give the man a fair trial and be done with it.

	30-01-2003 00:09									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I believe the system is almost, but not quite, perfect.

You must have some other system, cuz the one we have in America is practically broken, with the vast numbers of wrongly convicted being released every year.

	30-01-2003 00:11									#46
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DuncanK, the confession isn't any good. None of his lawyers up to now (and he's had many) will put this guy on the stand because it is so obvious he's lying.

	30-01-2003 00:15									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You must have some other system, cuz the one we have in America is practically broken, with the vast numbers of wrongly convicted being released every year.

Yeah, we should keep them locked up!

	30-01-2003 00:16									#48
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Fry em and be done with it.

Or ship him to Illinois, they know how to deal justice over there!

	30-01-2003 02:24									#49
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We will never know if he is guilty or not. Our system has shown itself to be corrupt time and time again through out history when it comes to things like this.

I'm sure this will sound crazy to some of you, but since he is a political leader he is even more deserving of absolute proof of his guilt, and certainly there is no absolute proof. And certainly he should not be put to death. He is a political voice and putting him to death would be an attempt to silence that voice. If he is put to death it will be yet another scare on our nation for silencing political dissadents.

	30-01-2003 02:27									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And why do you trust a guy who blatanly lied about receiving a Peabody Award and being a journalist?

I could care less. I'm sorry, if you are a journalist, but really this means nothing to me.

	30-01-2003 02:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I'm sure this will sound crazy to some of you, but since he is a political leader ...

http://www.danielfaulkner.com/indexmyth4.html

	30-01-2003 02:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I could care less. I'm sorry, if you are a journalist, but really this means nothing to me.

It has nothing to do with journalism, it's about his rampant dishonesty. He published a book and claimed that he was a Peabody Award winner. This is one of the most prestigious of literary awards. He never won a Peabody award, was never even seriously considered for one. It was a blatant lie. Yet you trust his protestations of innocence?

There is zero substantiation he was even a journalist. Nobody can find any articles he wrote pre-1981. Isn't that odd?

He's a liar.

	30-01-2003 03:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov He's a liar.

So were the police and the judge.

	30-01-2003 03:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You truly scare me.

As would anyone of intelligence and knowledge.

	30-01-2003 03:26									#55
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Oerdin, don't worry, Duncan seems to like to paint his picture of his opponents in debate as wide eyed idealists that'll believe everything the right says.

quote: Just give the man a fair trial and be done with it.

It did go up and down the Appeals route and those courts did not think the trial judge abused his discretion.

quote: since he is a political leader

since when?! He was a self-proclaimed 'political leader' after this whole thing spun out of control.

Fry Mumia, Fry!

	30-01-2003 03:34									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It did go up and down the Appeals route and those courts did not think the trial judge abused his discretion.

Yes and no. If the appelate courts didn't think something was hinky this couldn't have gone on for 20 years. Sabo was ordered to hear new evidence repeatedly and ultimately forced out of his position. Sabo, a former cop, had it in for Jamal. I think he would have had a new trial if Pensylvania didn't have judical rules which allows judges to oversee hearings to decide if they granted a fair trial over their own trials. I also think he would have been found guilty and sentenced to life given the mitgating factors of his brother's beating and the fact that Faulkner shot Jamal first.

	30-01-2003 03:44									#57
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Actually death row appeals going on for 20 years is nothing striking, che. They tend to spend around that much time normally going up and down and back up and sometimes back down, etc.

And it is kinda hard to get a fair trial now, with all the publication about the case. Everyone knows about it now and is biased in one way or the other.

	30-01-2003 04:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It has nothing to do with journalism, it's about his rampant dishonesty. He published a book and claimed that he was a Peabody Award winner. This is one of the most prestigious of literary awards. He never won a Peabody award, was never even seriously considered for one. It was a blatant lie. Yet you trust his protestations of innocence? There is zero substantiation he was even a journalist. Nobody can find any articles he wrote pre-1981. Isn't that odd? He's a liar.

Well I wont vote for him if he runs for office, but I wont support putting him to death either.

	30-01-2003 05:36									#59
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Neither will I--I wouldn't for anyone--but I fully support a long prison term for him, because I think he's very guilty. He is not, as he protests, innocent, nor is he the victim of some massive racist conspiracy.

	30-01-2003 09:18									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Neither will I--I wouldn't for anyone--but I fully support a long prison term for him, because I think he's very guilty. He is not, as he protests, innocent, nor is he the victim of some massive racist conspiracy.

Conspiracy.... probably not, but those responsible for establishing his guilt may very well be racist. If you want to look at the overall system as a racist conspiracy then maybe it is. I just think it is what it is. It works the way it works.