29-01-2003 11:46									#1
	What should we do in regard to borders with Vox? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Dominae suggested a poll on this, so I'll go ahead and start one. I'm setting a two-day time period, so please take your time voting unless you're sure your mind can't be changed.

	29-01-2003 11:54									#2
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By the way, the latest proposal would give Vox around 70 land tiles and us around 120 (not counting coast and sea) if I counted correctly. The one Jon and I hashed out previously left them a few less and us a few more. Vox's size (and especially production capacity) relative to ours would be a lot smaller than a comparison of numbers of cities alone would indicate.

	29-01-2003 13:08									#3
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I dont like the fact that in the latest proposal they have 2 of the visible iron sources and we only have 1

If our iron scource depletes, as it very often does in civ3, that would leave us in very vulnerable position.

I think borders should be so that we had a chanse to gain 2 iron sources, especially if they have more iron sources near their core.

	29-01-2003 13:27									#4
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We have iron both by Hurricane and in the Spinebreakers. In my most recent proposal, the iron in the Spinebreakers is within the theoretical city radius of both a Voxian city and one of ours, but there would have to be a clear understanding that Vox won't boost their culture to make a grab for it. (An early temple should give us the initial cultural advantage.) In the version Jon and I worked out previously, our city was the only one that had that iron in its radius.

	29-01-2003 13:39									#5
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay We have iron both by Hurricane and in the Spinebreakers. In my most recent proposal, the iron in the Spinebreakers is within the theoretical city radius of both a Voxian city and one of ours, but there would have to be a clear understanding that Vox won't boost their culture to make a grab for it. (An early temple should give us the initial cultural advantage.) In the version Jon and I worked out previously, our city was the only one that had that iron in its radius.

In that case, IF its made very clear that they do not persue culture in that city, and we build temple in ours there immediately, its almost acceptable, but still, i'd like to move our 2nd iron city one tile northwards of the coast, that way it would be sure that we would always have the 2nd iron in our radius.

	29-01-2003 19:58									#6
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Let's leave the matter of culture in the gray area. We are better than Vox in micromanagement, and our city competing on the iron source has a better location, so we can win this war.
If we explicitly tell them not to compete with us on cultural control over that iron source, they will want something in return for that promise. Might as well make this a race, that IMHO we can surely win.

	29-01-2003 20:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Let's leave the matter of culture in the gray area. We are better than Vox in micromanagement, and our city competing on the iron source has a better location, so we can win this war. If we explicitly tell them not to compete with us on cultural control over that iron source, they will want something in return for that promise. Might as well make this a race, that IMHO we can surely win.

True, we are Religious and they are not, this is a clear advantage in this case. Still we may need to whip the temple there if we are still in despotism when we have the city founded up there.

	29-01-2003 22:17									#8
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Culture / religion: we will probably want to build libraries instead of temples... religious is a disadvantage over scientific. If we want to outculture Vox, who needs border expansions (and thus will go for libraries), we have to produce both a temple and a library. I don't consider this ideal, so anything we can get without a cultural superiourity: please.

DeepO

	29-01-2003 22:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Conqueror True, we are Religious and they are not, this is a clear advantage in this case. Still we may need to whip the temple there if we are still in despotism when we have the city founded up there.

That's where another advantage of the religious trait comes into play - we'll be in republic faster than Vox will.

	29-01-2003 23:07									#10
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Aren't we getting a bit off topic here, i mean, we better discuss the details of the borders first, then do what we can to achieve our objectives (like claiming the Iron).

I think a division of 70-120 tiles is quite fair, but of course we should come with a higher demand when we return to the table, so of course we should point out that the first offer (the one with a bit more tiles for us) is the best one, and if they insist, we can say something like: "well, maybe if we can sort the Iron issue (in our favor...) something can be done."
I'll go for option #2, and only in case of any serious danger for the whole thing collapsing, we maybe we can compromise for a tile or two, in exchange for them accepting our claim on that Iron.

	30-01-2003 00:13									#11
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Agreed.
Btw, IMHO it's important that we place Vox's cities as if we're placing ours, assuming that they will, in fact, be ours eventually.

	30-01-2003 02:21									#12
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I don't like the border plan (either).

REX it out.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 03:24									#13
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quote: Btw, IMHO it's important that we place Vox's cities as if we're placing ours, assuming that they will, in fact, be ours eventually.

That's right Shiber!, you shouldv'e seen it in the chat, Nathan and Jon actually sat down and discussed the city placement strategy that Vox should use, even on their northern territories. It seems they're more insecure about their play than was first thought, if they are willing to except Nathan plan, or at least consider it without feeling a bit insulted (which was not the case, or so it seemed).

	30-01-2003 05:42									#14
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REX it out.

	30-01-2003 19:34									#15
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Thanks for putting up this poll, Nathan.



I'll vote when I finish studying the maps yet another time, and form a solid opinion.


Dominae

	02-02-2003 03:47									#16
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This issue needs to be adressed ASAP, especially with Vox's new city (see turn 46), so, anyone who hasn't made up his mind yet should do so so, even though this poll is closed, you can post on this thread (Dominae?).

	02-02-2003 04:38									#17
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Well, if we REX it out, the GL plan is pretty much dead.

	02-02-2003 04:44									#18
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I retract my REX vote, and instead vote for a border. Given the building of Dissidentville, is there any changes necessary to the most recently negotiated border?