29-01-2003 13:54									#1
	Graphics standards Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The purpose of this thread is to elaborate current state of Stella Polaris graphics workshop. While I can't currently spot any code development, I still hope it's temporary state.
Currently I can see just two persons willing to do somethng with StP graphics design. Namely, Jeremy Buloch and me. While the current work in the Graphics Sections seems to be not too tight and fast paced, I think that we must negotiate with coders so our work will remain useful rather than lost in time like paper in loo.
I've got several questions while thinking about and working around unit models.

1. Texture matters.
Q1.1 Texture format. Long-long ago, PNG was accepted for sprite graphics. It may be still good, as it's loseless and has alpha.
Q1.2 Texture bpp. RGB ws. palette. The later is much more compact while requires additional work for loading.
Q1.3 Texture color scheme.
Q1.4 Texture size. Standards are nxm where n, m must be 2^(some integer). Usualy n==m. Obviously, it's download size/quality tradeof.

2. Model meshes.
Q2.1 Model format. .3ds is good as interchange, but even inside .3ds there are two flavors: binary .3ds and text .asc. Other formats may be reviewed, too.
Q2.2 Model size. I currently estimate reasonable model size around 500-1000 triangles. It isn't any big for reasonable modern (1-2 yrs. old) graphics boards. Modern ones may easily support 10x.
Q2.3 Model animation, i.e. legs motion for soldiers, turrets rotation etc.
Q2.4 Additonal model info, like particle emitters (dust, fire etc), death sequences, dead units etc.
Q2.5 Unit identification (player colors, player flags, player logo on units etc.)
Q2.6 Various stuff directly not related to graphics yet useful (BB for collision etc.)
Q2.7 Model optimization (fans, strips etc.)
3. General and misc.
Q3.1 Multitexturing support, i.e.
Q3.2 Bump mapping,
Q3.3 Cubic environment mapping.
Q3.4 Vertex and pixel shaders (register combiners are junk!).

	29-01-2003 15:19									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good to see you bringing up a list of basic graphics issues that should be negotiated. I don't have anything to say really about the questions. I hope that you can together settle the issues so that we don't get something that doesn't work or is a bad solution.

	30-01-2003 01:54									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks Targon! These questions need to be asked. I'll let the coders answer them.
Keep up the good work. I'll post some questions maybe later. I'm busy...
-J.B.-

	30-01-2003 14:19									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hello, is anybody out there
People can't you hear
Can't you hear my cry
Forevermore, Iron Savior

We have 9 "developers" at our sourceforge page (counting Blake), and there is still no feedback concerning vital parts of the game. I hope they're too busy rather then ignorant.

	30-01-2003 14:32									#5
	Suffering from ads?

I would say that you can expect answers from Vovansim, Vultur, Alien and Carbaher. Most likely Chaos Theory and Kurilka too, despite I haven't seen Kurilka for a while now. Gowyn is too busy with his real work that he gets paid for and Blake is still missing like before.

	30-01-2003 15:11									#6
	Got spare money?

BTW, I recomend StPDT developers to hang on game developer community sites, such is gamasutra and some others. Among usual advertizing and scrap, it does contain some interesing articles about game design and development.

	30-01-2003 15:21									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree with Targon. I think I'm registered on Gamasutra, but I've never used that account. I usually read news and articles.

	30-01-2003 16:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm still there (just don't have much to post), but the point is that i'm not experienced in 3d graphics programming so cannot be an expert in choosing technologies and have not much time to do extensive research work in this area.
But I'm still ready to code (just anything needed) and to discuss other subjects (e.g. networking). I have said already that we need 3D graphics developer with an experience, who has usable knowledge.

	30-01-2003 16:58									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You have me
While my language taste is incomatible with StP C++ choice, I'm in OpenGL for past several years. The most of my questions are in fact, programmer's.
But I will not do that desicions by myself due to various reasons:
a) We are the team
b) We have a dozen of developers
c) I'm an artist, not a developer
d) Lot of graphics work lies on developer's shoulders
e) I can't treat my StP teammates as not competent until they will force me to think so. They still didn't.
f) Why I need to bother?
So it's very good you're here, Kurilka, but I need more feedback. I suspect Vultur was here but didn't reply. In fact, my questions are up to him.

	30-01-2003 17:12									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

a) hope so
b) 9<12
c) that's what I'm saying - we need experienced DEVELOPER
d)? what do you mean by that?
e)Don't know how it will be in English, but специалист подобен флюсу - полнота его одностороння... ((c) K. Prutkov). Sorry for Russian
f)Don't know...
And I also thought that Vultur is our (programmers') new leader

	30-01-2003 17:22									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

item "d" explained: every graphics feature requires some amount of coding effort, testing, documentation etc. Of course, upside-down tiled graphics would be the most pleasing for developers, and "чем дальше в лес, тем толще партизаны" == the farther, the more.

	30-01-2003 18:16									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

The Russian isn't a problem at all. I just switch the encoding for Mozilla. Of course that doesn't yet mean I would understand it. As for Vultur, I could say that he has at least one larger exam at the polytechnic school now, so he won't have time to comment, I suppose. I agree that we would need an experienced developer, but the problem is that Blake has disappeared and none of the earlier attempts resulted in contacts from any experienced C++ developers (if we mean ones that are almost pro). Anyway, Kurilka and Gowyn came from SourceForge, which is something positive.

	30-01-2003 18:48									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

and othes came from Apolyton?

	30-01-2003 19:03									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Others, except for Vovansim, were from old FreeAC Forums.

	30-01-2003 20:05									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ahh the Old FreeAC forums.
-J.B.-

	30-01-2003 20:30									#16
	Got spare money?

As of questions:
Q1.* seem to be up to designers (to you targon) and from my point of view big size (rgb vs palette) is not so scary thing in our time, so RGB (or +alpha?) will be simple and good enough...
Q2.3 - what are you familiar with? And what are the alternatives?
I don't think that we need very complex animation as our units won't be very large, but it should be not very primitive and the best option is to have something extensible (at first no anim, then primitive one and then more and more cool)

	31-01-2003 00:33									#17
	Vultur Strikes Back Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin As for Vultur, I could say that he has at least one larger exam at the polytechnic school now, so he won't have time to comment, I suppose.

ehm... yes I've a couple of big exams, but today I've 10 minutes to this reply thread so these are my ideas:

quote: Q1.1 Texture format. Long-long ago, PNG was accepted for sprite graphics. It may be still good, as it's loseless and has alpha.

I suggest to keep .PNG format, for many reason: it is a light format and it's opensource. With SDL/SDL_image it's possible to load any 2D thing w/out problems.

quote: Q1.2 Texture bpp. RGB ws. palette. The later is much more compact while requires additional work for loading.

I think that 32bpp it would be ok. 16 doesn't look good and 24bpp are not supported by all programs, if I remember well. I suggest RGB for coding reason (it's possible to code shadows, flags etc. with few commands)

quote: Q1.3 Texture color scheme.

No idea.

quote: Q1.4 Texture size. Standards are nxm where n, m must be 2^(some integer). Usualy n==m. Obviously, it's download size/quality tradeof.

To be designed. I suggest to don't do them too little for obvious reasons. Please try to put the same image with texture different size, so we can decide.

quote: 2. Model meshes. Q2.1 Model format. .3ds is good as interchange, but even inside .3ds there are two flavors: binary .3ds and text .asc. Other formats may be reviewed, too. Q2.2 Model size. I currently estimate reasonable model size around 500-1000 triangles. It isn't any big for reasonable modern (1-2 yrs. old) graphics boards. Modern ones may easily support 10x. Q2.3 Model animation, i.e. legs motion for soldiers, turrets rotation etc. Q2.4 Additonal model info, like particle emitters (dust, fire etc), death sequences, dead units etc. Q2.5 Unit identification (player colors, player flags, player logo on units etc.) Q2.6 Various stuff directly not related to graphics yet useful (BB for collision etc.) Q2.7 Model optimization (fans, strips etc.) 3. General and misc. Q3.1 Multitexturing support, i.e. Q3.2 Bump mapping, Q3.3 Cubic environment mapping. Q3.4 Vertex and pixel shaders (register combiners are junk!).

We need a format that can be manipulated easly by C++ coding.
So if you find a model that works well, with an opensource code for "Mysterious Graphic Actions", please put tell us the references.

I think it's all.

	31-01-2003 05:31									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks Vultur.
-J.B.-

	31-01-2003 12:13									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, Vultur. I can't say your strike was unstopable, yet it's better than nothing. The only wondering thing is "composite" suggestion about items 2.x 'till end. OK, you said you're too busy. Good luck with your exams.

	31-01-2003 12:35									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

targon - what about animation?
it there something good enough?

	31-01-2003 13:03									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Of course, there are a plenty of choices.
For example, we may employ Open Dynamics Engine (http://opende.sourceforge.net), but I think it may be way too big for strategic game (while good simulation of movements is really attractive. Just remember how good was unit movement in TotAn). There are several other opensource collision detection and animation toolkits, and almost any "fat" scenegraph offers some support for animation.
On other hand, we may simply write it by hand... we needn't any spectacular, simple keyframing or script animation may be OK.

	31-01-2003 16:00									#22
	Remove this text

BTW, can't our beloved Coder Team say that graphics engine they plan to (ab)use. The only word may settle ~75% of my questions.

	31-01-2003 16:03									#23
	Support Apolyton

quote: 2. Model meshes. Q2.1 Model format. .3ds is good as interchange, but even inside .3ds there are two flavors: binary .3ds and text .asc. Other formats may be reviewed, too.

.3DS Format it's ok.

quote: Q2.2 Model size. I currently estimate reasonable model size around 500-1000 triangles. It isn't any big for reasonable modern (1-2 yrs. old) graphics boards. Modern ones may easily support 10x.

1000 triangles for any unit is more than enogh, I'think. Remember that is not a simulation game, but a strategy one.

quote: Q2.3 Model animation, i.e. legs motion for soldiers, turrets rotation etc.

25-30 frames/second per unit. I think we don't need 50-60 frames... For the model:choose your favourite one and use it.

quote: Q2.4 Additonal model info, like particle emitters (dust, fire etc), death sequences, dead units etc.

Sequences needed:
Fast movement (Run etc.)
Slow movement (Sneak etc.)
Fight - attack
Fight - damaged (optional)
Fight - death
Special Action (depend on the unit: i.e. infantry that dig trenches etc)
Other Optional Sequences:
Surrender
Escape
Mind Probed
Defect
For all animation 1 suggest a sequence of 2-3 seconds.

quote: Q2.5 Unit identification (player colors, player flags, player logo on units etc.)

Put one common color to each unit (like transparency color of sprites), than it's possible to implement in the game a function that change that color into the player's one.
Player logo... sound interesting. I think it's possible to paste a texture with a logo on a specified part of the unit.

quote: Q2.6 Various stuff directly not related to graphics yet useful (BB for collision etc.)

If we draw sequences like "unit damaged" we don't need a collision detection, but if you think it's useful to implement it why not?

quote: Q2.7 Model optimization (fans, strips etc.) 3. General and misc. Q3.1 Multitexturing support, i.e. Q3.2 Bump mapping, Q3.3 Cubic environment mapping. Q3.4 Vertex and pixel shaders (register combiners are junk!).

I think Multitexturing will be very usefull for the map drawing, so it's ok.
Other features will be added if we need them.

	31-01-2003 16:17									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Vultur I think Multitexturing will be very usefull for the map drawing, so it's ok.

Yes, we'll have several advantages:
- free game detail with the same poly count
- eye-candy, modern look
- faster rendering, as programmable vertex/pixel shaders (or "programs") may be used to transfer some features from CPU to 3D card (like env. mapping, skinning etc.)

quote: Other features will be added if we need them.

This is exactly the attitude I'm expecting from the StPDT coder team!

	31-01-2003 19:29									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

just one Q: i just would like to know what kind of minium requirements is everyone thinking of when making this game?

	31-01-2003 20:32									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The old requirements for the StP client (Windows version) were around PII 300 MHz (or equivalent) and 32/64 Mb RAM. The server has much lower sys. requirements. But as the graphics have changed to OpenGL, you will need a graphics accelerator that supports OpenGL (or actually the drivers are the crucial issue). Keyboard, mouse and sound card/APU, plus a monitor that can display a resolution of 800x600 (or more). OS requirements: Win 9x/ME/2000/XP or Linux with kernel 2.1.x (not sure about it yet, depends very much if you have all the necessary libraries). Generally speaking I would say that the system requirements for the StP client recall of Civ III's sys. requirements.

	31-01-2003 20:35									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

AHH! thats a problem one of my computers cant support OpenGL. At least my 2000, XP one can.
-J.B.-

	31-01-2003 21:38									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's your problem, not our.

	01-02-2003 01:07									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Haha Very funny Rasbey.
-J.B.-

	01-02-2003 01:31									#30
	Support Apolyton

I'm simply stating that we can't ensure the game works with every graphics accelerator out there. If your GPU is outdated, get a new one or don't play. The system requirement for the graphics accelerator isn't that high after all as OpenGL hardware/driver support isn't that new anymore. I could also whine that the StP client won't work with my old Matrox Millenium 4 Mb, but I don't see any reason to do so.