30-01-2003 00:44									#1
	Turn 44 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Researching Writing at 100%
- 86 gold cash, -1 per turn.

Urgent questions:
- none

Military:
- Grog returns to the Lookout Ridge.
- Settler moves 2 on site #7. Bolderberg to be founded next turn.
- Zonk moves back to Cyclone (if no barbarian sighted)
- Slash moves 2 and will reach site #7 in 2 turns

Economy:
- Worker #1 begins road to Bolderberg and Cyclone.
- Worker #2 finished irrigating and starts road.
- Cities continue as they are.

Diplomacy:
- none

Last edited by nbarclay on 30-01-2003 at 13:52

	30-01-2003 01:38									#2
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Map Making next for sure.


Dominae

	30-01-2003 01:44									#3
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You think so? Do we have a city that will definitely be able to produce a galley around the time we will get mapmaking? Hurricane, perhaps, but right now the discussion is raging over whether or not we're going to a) build the GL there or b) build a barracks and pump out vet spearmen.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 01:52									#4
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If we do go for the GL, we might have a problem building our first Galley. The best solution here would be to prioritize site 4 as our next city-site (East of Cyclone), and used a chopped forst to get our boat in the water.

If Hurricane is instead placed on Vet. Spearmen duty, I'm sure we can spare a few turns to build a Galley. A Galley will be useful immediately; the Spearmen probably not.


Dominae

	30-01-2003 05:00									#5
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Just confirming... Grog is on the east coast is moving 8?

	30-01-2003 05:18									#6
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Grog was on the mountain with the iron 3 east of the Lookout Ridge, killed a barb camp there. He went back 1 tile last turn. In 2 turns he'll be back at his lookout.

	30-01-2003 05:35									#7
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If we don't go for the Great Library, I'd much rather head straight for Republic than detour through Map Making. There may be an outside chance we could REX our way to winning the race for Republic, which not only would speed up our research but might be a very valuable thing to trade. And hopefully, a Roleplay galley will find us in the meantime; otherwise, if Vox and Lux want Republic from us, this business of keeping contacts to themselves has to end.

Nathan

	30-01-2003 05:54									#8
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I don't know. The GL is an amazing wonder, but the price we're going to pay is simply too high. At least for my taste.

Why The Republic, Nathan? Shouldn't we first have a much better infrastructure to really take advantage from it. I'm still in favor of Map Making first. Here are the reasons:

- We are behind in tech and need contacts to as many teams as possible, in order to speed up the research of techs the other civs have already.
- There is most likely still a lot of gaps on the other continent and we can send some exploring warriors there. Considering the fact, that this will be our battlefield, this information is very precious. After all terrain is settled, it will be too late.

	30-01-2003 06:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I don't know. The GL is an amazing wonder, but the price we're going to pay is simply too high. At least for my taste. Why The Republic, Nathan? Shouldn't we first have a much better infrastructure to really take advantage from it. I'm still in favor of Map Making first. Here are the reasons: - We are behind in tech and need contacts to as many teams as possible, in order to speed up the research of techs the other civs have already. - There is most likely still a lot of gaps on the other continent and we can send some exploring warriors there. Considering the fact, that this will be our battlefield, this information is very precious. After all terrain is settled, it will be too late.

I can see the logic with mapmaking first. Personally, I would prefer going for the lighthouse than the library for exactly those reasons. I would think that our goal would be to never fight a war (besides with Vox) on our territory. The only way to do that is to take the battle abroad and protect our coasts. That one extra turn and sea movement could prove more valuable in the long run than the GL, IMHO.

Like I've said before, in the archi mp maps I've played and gotten the G lighthouse, I've been much stronger than my opponents.

	30-01-2003 06:14									#10
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I've always viewed the idea that Republic is only worth it with lots of infrastructure as overblown even on Emperor, and we're playing here on Chieftain (at least as far as happiness is concerned). As long as tile improvements keep up with our growth, each laborer gives us an extra gold under Republic, and once we get our second luxury hooked up, happiness won't start to be a problem until cities grow to size seven (eight if we give them one of our cheap temples). Then there's the significantly reduced corruption under Republic, which lets us keep more gold and more shields from our outlying cities. So yes, I think Republic would very definitely work to our advantage even without the added benefits of marketplaces and libraries (and even with a much larger military than I would normally have in SP).

What I'd really love, of course, is if other civs think like you do. Just think how far we could go trading Republic if that's the case.

Nathan

	30-01-2003 06:27									#11
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You have a point with the trade argument. But as far as I can see, beelines to the better governments are pretty common in PBEM games. And many of the other teams are active PBEM players.

What we're talking about, is a 12 point tech (MM). Philosophy costs 6, CoL 10 and the Republic itself 28. How long will it take to get it?

	30-01-2003 08:12									#12
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If we want to stay in the game research-wise without the Great Library (and I don't regard the Great Library debate as closed yet), we need either something that will enhance our science or a branch lead on the tech tree, preferably both. If we would check with Roleplay and find out that they decided they weren't so interested in Map Making after all, there's a chance that using Map Making for a branch lead might be practical. But if Map Making is a priority for them, we can pretty much forget it.

A beeline to Republic (with Vox researching Philosophy while we research Code of Laws) would offer direct value for our research capacity, and would give us a decent chance at a branch lead on the single most valuable of all ancient techs. There's an outside chance our duo would get either Philosophy or Code of Laws at a time when Lux wants it. And we'd have a better chance of out-REXing other teams enough that we could win the race to Republic - especially if we could get Vox to feed us a little gold so we can keep our research rate at 100%.

As for the future military value of information about the other continent, it would certainly be nice to know about whatever lands there aren't settled yet. But if our tech base isn't strong enough to support an invasion, what's the point?

Nathan

	30-01-2003 08:24									#13
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We're not entirely sure what the world tech situation is (other than reports from Vox). Thus we're not sure what each team is researching. Things are going to be a lot different once we've made contact with everyone else.

We need to get contact with the other teams ASAP.

I suggest we research Map Making, and ask Vox to get started on The Republic. There are still quite a few techs in the Ancient age; we'll get into the loop somehow, but only if we make contact sooner rather than later.


Dominae

	30-01-2003 09:55									#14
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If we do go for Map Making, we might want to get Vox started on Code of Laws and then we could go back and pick up Philosophy after we're finished with Map Making. That way Map Making would "only" set us back by an editor tech value of eight, assuming Vox can research quickly enough. Of course that difference is still more than a quarter of the way to Republic, which would pretty much destroy our hope of getting a branch lead with Republic.

The first thing we probably ought to do is contact Roleplay and try to find out what they're up to. If they're still prioritizing Map Making and interested in looking us up when they get it, that would take off a lot of the pressure for us to research it and make it a lot less worthwhile to research (since Roleplay will almost certainly get it first).

Nathan

	30-01-2003 10:01									#15
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My current views:

* Vox
These guys are idiots and unstable. First off, I just don;t trust them (not that they are bad guys, they just suck and are immature), and secondly they are f-cking amateurs. They are totally unsuitable as long-term partners. Additionally, we have a locational problem... I want their land. We are eventually going to want our FP either in the center of or toward the north of the lower part of our continent.

That said, there are CLEARLY benefits to working with them in the short to medium term. No war for the moment (although I'll get back to our military posture). Shared techs and contacts.

Edit: Accidentally posted at this point. More to come.

More on Vox:

They will also prep our future land. And, perhaps, they can be of military use... Immortals and also a geographic buffer.

So I am all in favor of some kind of deal with them that achieves at least our short to medium term goals. But nothing more... maybe some promises of future possibilities, but we need to maintain the flexibility to go to war with them, or at least threaten to do so. In other words, they will survive at our sufferance (come on, we all know that to be true), and at a certain point we will either vassalize or destroy them. I said weeks ago that we should leverage our rep and intimidate the other teams... let's do so.

* The border concept
No way, unless it's pushed about 5 tiles to the north. I'd rather just REX... agreeing on a border as most recently suggested gives them a "diplomatic right" to that land, such that when we would want to take those towns / cities they could go crying to the UN Security Council. I don;t care if they try to expand down into the jungle and backfill... those towns will be worthless for them, and ours to take when we are ready.

* Research
Given the ability to accelerate research through cooperation and contacts, I believe we can get to Republic before it will be meaningfully additive to our commerce. I'd rather focus on MM to increase contacts, and thus decrease the cost of research... can someone think through the math of of this? I do not believe that Republic will be doable as a branch tech lead... too many non-religious civs out there. I think of our tech situation as being analogous to SP Emperor or Deity... we are screwed early on, in this case due to location; fine, we'll do what we have to to catch up.

* Military
I agree, for the moment we don;t want war. I've said this like 20 times... let's REX, defend appropriately, create killzones, develop a WC & Sword counter-reaction force, and start to build aggressive capabilities when it is time.

* GWs
I am completely uninterested for the moment. Colossus, maybe, but given what I've read of MP games, they are decided before the ongoing benefit of ANY GWs can contribute to the cause. Is it too much to ask that we develop our towns and land, build an appropriate military, explore and contact, and work our way out of the tech ditch we are in? And going for the GL as has been described is an INSANE bet... I'd rather play Lotto.

* Finally
We've got a great civ, a pretty good start except for our isolation, a weakling neighbor... Jesus Christ, I like to think we are among the best damn Civ3 players ALIVE! And we are on the verge of making monsterously important long term strategic decisions... like a looong term alliance with Vox (are you kidding?), because we heard second hand that there's a bunch of tech trading going on on the main continent? Gimme a break. Balance balance balance. Stick to the basics... play well... maintain flexibility. Be friendly, but NEVER handcuff ourselves. Sure we have challenges to overcome, but we need to remember who we are.

GATHERING STORM!!!

Last edited by Theseus on 30-01-2003 at 11:21

	30-01-2003 10:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The first thing we probably ought to do is contact Roleplay and try to find out what they're up to. If they're still prioritizing Map Making and interested in looking us up when they get it, that would take off a lot of the pressure for us to research it and make it a lot less worthwhile to research (since Roleplay will almost certainly get it first).

If other teams can guarantee they'll look us up ASAP, this sounds like a fine option. But puts us in a trusting and powerless position. Roleplay and others may want to keep us secluded. Maybe their Galleys will not find us as fast as we would like. Like I've said in another post, contact with the other teams is what we need the most right now, apart from REX. Even Roleplay do prioritize Map Making, is there such a loss in us researching it too? I too would like to be a branch leader, but this is pretty hard to do when we've contacted no on besides Vox.


Dominae

	30-01-2003 11:24									#17
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Please look back one post above Dominae's... I had a longish edit.

	30-01-2003 14:08									#18
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I took the bit about the new worker out of the economic orders, since he won't be finished until next turn (thanks, corruption) and I don't like mixing next-turn issues with this-turn orders. When he's finished, I have in mind for him to move 2 and start mining and then roading the wheat and then start work on shielded grasslands. When we can spare another worker, we'll connect Cyclone by chopping, irrigating, and roading the game tile.

	30-01-2003 15:52									#19
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How does this sound for a plan (in light of NYE's observation that wonders tend to come later in MP than in SP)?

1) Have Hurricane start work on a wonder once it finishes its barracks, without adding any workers. We'll take what wonder we can get. This would leave us militarily weak temporarily, but we'd get more cities to enhance our production base sooner than if we add workers to Hurricane.

2) Once we get Writing, we research Map Making, then Philosophy, while Vox goes for Code of Laws.

3) We go for Republic while Vox goes for Literature (unless we can trade for Literature). Libraries might help speed up the tail end of our work toward Republic.

Note that this will eventually provide the techs for both the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse. And because we'd be REXing and researching full speed and wonder-building more slowly than if we'd add workers, if we end up with the Pyramids, at least a large part of our GA would be in Republic (especially since the GA would help us get to Republic faster if we aren't there yet).

Nathan

	30-01-2003 18:24									#20
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Theseus, your views on short to middle term deal with Vox is not very differently as what the rest of the team thinks, so far I think Nathan is jthe only one who said he would like a middle to long term deal.

Borders: If we don't have any treaty, even assuming we'r going for Rex everywhere, focussing on settlers, we can't keep Vox from settling closer to us. The wheat city is lost no matter what (as they're already heading that way with a worker), and the next city won't take long. We are in no position to attack early on (as you said), which means they can build their first 2 border cities, and back fill later, unhampered. Of course, their defense will be weaker, of course their cities corrupted, and they will be easy to take later on. But the point is that we don't gain by pushing them to expand, as we'll have to expand as well.

This is for me the only reason to agree to the border treaty in its current form, it gives us more land and useable cities then without a treaty. And, we can direct how they will build their cities, making them worthy for us to take over in the future.

GL - literature discussion: if we're not going for the GL, MM would make a good choice. But, as said before: probably one of the best branch leads we can have is to go for construction, while ensuring that Vox gets us MM. I share Nathan's believe we can get to republic first, but if we don't have any contacts, that advantage won't last long. It is too high on the wanted list for everyone, especially the builders. Construction seems to have a better lifetime.

Nathan, Re: last proposal for just any wonder: No, I don't agree. The problem is that that will be too risky, The earliest any civ started on a wonder from their 3rd city (or their 1st, after 3rd was built) is in turn 29, 15 turns ago. This will mean that in the worst case scenario, we have a 40 shield delay we have to catch up, which without pumping size won't happen. I agree, it is possible that nobody has started yet (nobody is very isolated, apart from us, and the GoW is close to at least 3 civs, which tends to delay wonder building), but we can't gamble on that. I don't want to spend all these shields without at least having a very good shot at hitting the jackpot.

Re: the effect of wonders: the GL is good, as it nets us over 2000 gold. The pyramids are good, as they will make our empire grow twice as fast, making pop-rushing a viable way of getting production. The lighthouse will be good, but this is no archipelago map, and at this point I won't go for it specifically, starting a prebuild to get to the lighthouse. Collosus is always nice, but as we will likely not get that far in the game, and because we have many cities (and not just 4 or 5), its effect is rather limited (8 more commerce each turn is not nothing, but not very extraordinary either). Other wonders are simply not worth it, so if we go for a wonder, we should do it now, and not later (except when spending a leader). And the GL certainly is my favorite, as it has the best shields / gold ratio, coming at a good time too.

DeepO

	30-01-2003 18:42									#21
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For us to get beat out on the Great Library, the Pyramids, and the Great Lighthouse all three, either there would have to be a combination of at least three cities (including at least one coastal one) that (a) already started on wonders and are capable of at least comparable production with Hurricane, or (b) will start later but would outproduce Hurricane enough to make up for the late start. I wouldn't count on hitting the Great Library jackpot without adding workers, but I don't think there's a whole lot of risk of being stuck with nothing either.

In regard to the Great Lighthouse, it would be useful in any intercontinental invasion, and there's at least some chance it would make an enormous difference in our ability to get to RolePlay's lands quickly should they become an attractive target. Judging from the minimaps (and I'd welcome other people's interpretations), it looks to me like the distance between us and RolePlay just might allow a direct crossing rather than having to follow the coast with the ability to stop in sea tiles and move four per turn.

	30-01-2003 19:43									#22
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We can get to RPG without crossing sea or ocean, but it will require a detour. Lux has been trading with other teams (most likely up to RPG), so it has to be able to reach them. Further, we can reach Lux...

Lighthouse might not be a total waste, but in this situation, it is hardly the best wonder either. I still think we should go for the GL

Re: what to research: a new msg from RPG has arrived, but I currently have not enough time to discuss it. Can someone give an estimate on how long it will take to get to writing? They don't have it yet, and seemingly don't have access to Lux (nor Vox). I think we can agree to the proposed deal, as we will not get there in time anyway, but we should use it to get something else for the trade.

DeepO

	30-01-2003 20:36									#23
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I've just read the message from RP. Curses on Vox for delaying our research!

RPG would never agree to delay their release of writing to the world by 12 turns. We must strike an agreement with Vox and Lux NOW.
IMHO, we should tell Vox that they will be buying writing from us, without the possibility to change renegotiate this deal, and tell Lux that as soon as Vox has given us contacts with them in exchange for writing, we will offer them writing at a discounted price, or in exchange for any other contacts that they may have.

	30-01-2003 20:51									#24
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Why let Hurricance finish its Barracks if it's going to be placed on Wonder-duty?

Great Library then Pyramids are our best choices. As Nathan said, we'll probably get one of these two, and if so the Great Lighthouse is not so bad (but not so great, IMO).


Dominae

	30-01-2003 21:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Why let Hurricance finish its Barracks if it's going to be placed on Wonder-duty? Great Library then Pyramids are our best choices. As Nathan said, we'll probably get one of these two, and if so the Great Lighthouse is not so bad (but not so great, IMO).

Why the barracks? Because that way, we won't have to wait close to 20 turns to have the ability to upgrade warriors to swordsmen should an emergency arise.

	30-01-2003 21:29									#26
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Well, the save has been here for some time now. Is there anyone around who can play?

Last edited by Shiber on 30-01-2003 at 21:50

	30-01-2003 21:56									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I've just read the message from RP. Curses on Vox for delaying our research! RPG would never agree to delay their release of writing to the world by 12 turns. We must strike an agreement with Vox and Lux NOW. IMHO, we should tell Vox that they will be buying writing from us, without the possibility to change renegotiate this deal, and tell Lux that as soon as Vox has given us contacts with them in exchange for writing, we will offer them writing at a discounted price, or in exchange for any other contacts that they may have.

An unforeseen consequence of our relationship with Vox

I suspect that there will be more unforeseen consequences the longer we maintain this relationship.

The total sum is less than the parts, if you will.

The more we rely on Vox to do ANYTHING, the more this will happen.

	30-01-2003 22:06									#28
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writing delay deal with RPG (which I'm going to discuss here, instead of in the RPG comments thread as we already started on it):

Is it going to take us 12 turns? If so, we can't keep Lux from getting it... one of the implications of this deal is that Lux will get it from RPG, and from us / Vox.

RPG doesn't say anything about Civ X, they don't tell us that it's Lux. I find it very hard to believe they wouldn't know, seeing their previous messages (in which they told us that Vox could be seen from across the sea). I think they simply don't want to spoil that information to us, as Lux asked them to keep quiet about it.

1. So, do we tell them it's Lux? There's a small chance they don't know it yet, but it would certainly simplify communications. Plus, Vox told Lux we're close, so we don't betray anything if we tell RPG if it's Lux. (and it builds further on the goodwill between GS and RPG)

2. RPG will be able to trade writing to Lux, who may be researching it themselves. We can't help it, I see no way of getting to Lux first. We can get to Vox first, though, so we should aim for that. But, we can delay the trade to the outside world a little, marginally delaying trades on the other continent. So, would anyone object if I try to negotiate a deal with RPG, in which we both aren't allowed to trade away writing in 6 turns? This should make it possible to get to Vox in 8 turns (if we have writing at that point), and is no lie if properly formulated: we will not trade away writing before the 6 turns have passed.

3. I would want to try to get an idea on how fast tech-trading is going, but the only way to ask them this information is if we tell them something in return. Does anyone have any ideas what we can tell to RPG, in order to ask them what kind of partnership deals have formed? We can ask them for an alliance (proposal of course, just feeling the mood), and if they would be interested in this... I'm sure RPG would make a better partner then Vox in the long term.

4. MM... would it be alright if I ask them again an estimate on the ETA of galleys? it looks like we will be around simultanous if we both research MM, so maybe we can make a deal, in that they go for literature, we for MM, and race towards them, at which point we'll trade. I don't see why we need to form a partnership with Lux, when RPG is closer by.

5. They asked about a deal in which we both disclose which wonders we were building, so that the other team couldn't start on it instead. Would it be good if we ask them if they have started on it already? We can say in all honesty that we're still discussing it...

DeepO

	30-01-2003 22:14									#29
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asleep, I don't want a long relation with Vox, but right now, they're the only ones around... we have to use what we have gotten, nothing to do about that.

The deal, in which we offer writing to Lux the moment we get their contact from Vox seems fine, but I doubt they will go for it. If they're researching it themselves, they will get it before we can offer it to them (certainly as there are a couple of turns delay in offering / accepting deals). Add to that that another team can get to writing too (on a 1 scientist regime RPG will be able to get it in 40 turns, which have passed already), and can trade it to Lux... most likely, they will not get it from us.

Vox said that Lux already had writing (IIRC), which is possible, but strange. Wouldn't RPG know this fact? Don't we need to contact them soonish, to confirm what Vox has said to us? If they already have writing, would RPG not know this?

DeepO

	30-01-2003 22:19									#30
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1. I see no problems with that.
2. Great idea, let's delay them by as much as we can. I was tempted to ask you to try to push it towards 7 turns, which they may agree to, but we don't want to aggrevate them. They're offering us a sweet deal already, there's not much room to maneuver within it, nor will it be polite to try to do so.
3. This should be fascinating! Yes, try to get some information about relations, deals and alliances that are forming. I haven't any ideas on what to tell them yet; I'm gonna walk my dog now (the one in my avatar), maybe I'll get some ideas during the walk.
4. Sounds good. We'll probably want to build a galley anyway, to explore the coasts of Vox and Lux.
5. I abstain from this discussion for now.

Last edited by Shiber on 30-01-2003 at 22:41