01-02-2003 04:37									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Researchers traced the first case to a man living in the Belgian Congo in the 1940s.

I *think* we are agreeing. I would consider 1940's to be both "around the middle of the past century" and "recent" (as opposed to, say, bubonic plague around 1000 AD).

	01-02-2003 04:38									#152
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quote: WRONG! You can be born with STDs. Some you can pick up through casual contact (crabs) or no contact at all (crabs, mollusum contagiosum).

You learn something new everyday. Thanks Che.

Another example would be AIDS transmission from the mother to their children. What's the longest that a child born with AIDS has survived?

I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wasn't looking for a long-term relationship of some sort.

quote: Many of these people in Africa don't feel they have a future. They may be dead tomorrow by being in the crossfire of a civil war. Or they may soon waste away because they have no food to eat, or the money to buy any. Do you really expect people in those situations to hold off on having sex? Why should they worry about a disease that may kill them in seven years, when they may not even be alive tomorrow, or next month? Contracting AIDS is the least of their immediate problems.

"Do you really expect people in those situations to hold off on having sex?"

Willem,

Loaded question, the way this is worded. People have sex for a variety of reasons, not just because of the circumstances be they positive or negative.

I ask you this, how do you know whether you will be alive tomorrow? In this sense, you are in the same predictament as the Africans.

For the same reason I ask people to wait here in Canada, I will ask these people to wait as well. I'm an optimist that they will live to enjoy the fruits of their actions.

	01-02-2003 04:45									#153
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by molly bloom If people think they may die tomorrow, eros will triumph over thanatos. As the wave of post-9/11 sex in NYC showed.

It's also worth recalling the sudden increase in birth rate after the great New York City electrical blackout (1964?, 1969?)...

	01-02-2003 04:49									#154
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wasn't looking for a long-term relationship of some sort. "Do you really expect people in those situations to hold off on having sex?" Loaded question, the way this is worded. People have sex for a variety of reasons, not just because of the circumstances be they positive or negative.

But you give loaded answers- for instance, you assumed that people having promiscuous sex would be heterosexual, and that children might be a result of that activity. There are plenty of sexual acts that do not involve penetrative sex (for heterosexuals, bisexuals and lesbians and gay men) that do not involve the transmission of semen, and that do not have to take place in someone's religiously sanctioned idea of a relationship.

You also miss out on something very important- one reason for a high birth rate in Africa is the expectation that without a universal (or anything approaching it) health care system, or welfare state, or old age pension, or insurance, your progeny are your providers when (if) you get old. If you read the links I provided in an earlier post you would see further links to prenatal H.I.V. transmission and transmission of H.I.V. through breast milk.

	01-02-2003 04:50									#155
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At the risk of injecting some reason into this discussion again, I wonder if it would be worth considering Jared Diamond's views on diseases from his book 'Guns, Germs, and Steel'? We tend to read about tha past as though it wasn't the present day to the people living then. What did people understand of the causes and long-term consequences of the Plague in Europe (from Asia) or the epidemics among the Native Americans (from Europe)? Can we contemplate the effects of AIDS on the history of the near future?

	01-02-2003 05:20									#156
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quote: you assumed that people having promiscuous sex would be heterosexual, and that children might be a result of that activity.

Homosexuals can be just as promiscuous as heterosexuals. In this sense they contribute to the HIV problem in Africa. Happy?

quote: one reason for a high birth rate in Africa is the expectation that without a universal (or anything approaching it) health care system, or welfare state, or old age pension, or insurance, your progeny are your providers when (if) you get old.

Agreed.

How do we provide these structures? I don't see this happening without prior industrialisation. The West took quite some time to develop these forms of social welfare.

Cavebear-

One scary thought is that if the AIDS epidemic persists, we might see a serious narrowing of the gene pool. I don't think that deaths due to AIDS have crested.

	01-02-2003 05:21									#157
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Funny -- I thought that was the origin of white Southerners.

CivNation. I don't know where he was from. Iowa, I think.

	01-02-2003 07:02									#158
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Loaded question, the way this is worded. People have sex for a variety of reasons, not just because of the circumstances be they positive or negative. I ask you this, how do you know whether you will be alive tomorrow? In this sense, you are in the same predictament as the Africans. For the same reason I ask people to wait here in Canada, I will ask these people to wait as well. I'm an optimist that they will live to enjoy the fruits of their actions.

It's not a loaded question, it's reality.

And I can be reasonably sure that I'm going to live tomorrow because I don't find myself in the middle of a civil war, I have food in the fridge, and money in my wallet to buy more. If I get sick or injured, I know that there's a hospital with doctors that will help me. And the water I drink is clean coming out of taps. The same can't be said for many people in Africa.

It's nice that you're such an optimist. So go over to Africa and tell the people living in a refugee camp that they will all live until they're 100. Just don't get all hot and bothered if they laugh in your face.

	01-02-2003 07:24									#159
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quote: I have food in the fridge, and money in my wallet to buy more. If I get sick or injured, I know that there's a hospital with doctors that will help me. And the water I drink is clean coming out of taps. The same can't be said for many people in Africa.

If this is our uppermost priority, why do we spend so much money on sending them condoms?

I agree, these problems take precedence. However, AIDS is a huge problem as well. By lessening the effects of AIDS, we improve the health of the people.

One way to combat this problem is through abstinence education. Worsening the AIDS problem will not put food on these people's plates, nor will it provide water.

quote: It's nice that you're such an optimist. So go over to Africa and tell the people living in a refugee camp that they will all live until they're 100.

Nope. That's not my point. Read my post again. All I hope is that they will live to have their children take care of them. Must they live until 100 to have a strong family and be taken care of by their children?

	01-02-2003 07:42									#160
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 All I hope is that they will live to have their children take care of them.

Millions of people around the world don't have that hope. Should they forgo the only pleasure available to them, if they're not sure whether they're going to survive the next year? Why should they worry about a disease that kills in seven years, when they're surrounded by so many things that can kill them tomorrow?

PS You obviously have never been down-and-out and desperate since you clearly have no idea what it feels like. Live life a little before you start passing judgement on other people.

	01-02-2003 07:58									#161
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 One way to combat this problem is through abstinence education.

So do you propose to send over "missionaries" to educate these people on the superiority of western morals? They've been doing that for over a hundred years now, it's worked really well don't you think?

	01-02-2003 09:23									#162
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quote: So do you propose to send over "missionaries" to educate these people on the superiority of western morals?

No. I'm talking about programs like they are running in Uganda. That the AFRICANS prefer due to their effectiveness. 'Western' morals has nothing to do with limiting sexual conduct, look at the Moslems, etc.

quote: PS You obviously have never been down-and-out and desperate since you clearly have no idea what it feels like. Live life a little before you start passing judgement on other people.

How am I passing judgement on these people? I sympathise with their plight! I want to help these people get out of this pit that they have fallen into.
Where have I blamed the Africans?

Don't presume to know my life, ok? Stick to the facts not personal attacks.

	01-02-2003 09:32									#163
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 How am I passing judgement on these people?

Maybe when you utter statements like this one?

"For the same reason adultery is immoral."

	01-02-2003 09:51									#164
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Why don't you post my reasoning behind the comparison as well?

Here's the actual post:

quote: For the same reason adultery is immoral. When you add a third person to the equation, you increase the risk of STD transmission not only to yourself, but also to the original partner. Is this fair to them?

This was my answer to the BROAD question of why having more than one sexual partner is wrong.

Try harder Willem, come up with some real discussion.

	01-02-2003 10:04									#165
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Try harder Willem, come up with some real discussion.

Sure. Just let me know when you're willing to look beyond your Western Christian ethics.