30-01-2003 22:52									#31
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I suppose Italy and Spain weighed the situation carefully before deciding whom to support : notice how much time they needed before writing the article ? Did these countries have no stance on the Iraq war before ? Or perhaps it took them a whole week to write the news article ?
I think a very important element is missing in this thread : with the 40th aniversary of the Elysée Treaty (French-German friendship), Paris and Berlin tried to create a new dynamics to the French-German axis, with many initiatives taken.
The strong common stance against war was symbolic of this new dynamics. And it is new : Paris and Berlin have disagreed on many, many topics in the past. Both countries are now forcing themselves to agree with each other, to take again their dominant position within Europe.

Important EU countries took the time to assess if they were able to resist the renewed French-German couple or not. It is clearly a manoeuver from former "lesser" countries like Spain and Italy to show they are now equal actors. They chose to adress the most important topic publicly (this way, even Americans know about it), but you can expect them to counter French and German efforts in some other domains as well. At least, until the confrontation ends.

I don't think Italy or Spain will be more or less reliable than France and Germany as US allies. Their ultimate decision to join the war will hang on an agreement of the UN security council (which will happen if China or Russia decide not to back the French-German veto, as these countries will withdraw it), and on the agreement with war in the population. Approx. 75% of the French and Germans are against war in Iraq, I wonder what these figures are in Italy and Spain

	30-01-2003 23:02									#32
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Still at uni, or found something else?

At Uni, of course.
He who knows does. He who doesn't, teaches

Anything new in Salzburg?

	30-01-2003 23:18									#33
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"He who doesn't, teaches"

Indeed, indeed....

"Anything new in Salzburg?"

Nothing particular. Might be in Nis for a couple days in autumn.

	30-01-2003 23:24									#34
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oh let me know

	30-01-2003 23:35									#35
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8 countries support a war?

big deal, there are still 40 countries left in Europe that don't at the feet of prez Gore warmonger bush

	31-01-2003 00:24									#36
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quote: Approx. 75% of the French and Germans are against war in Iraq, I wonder what these figures are in Italy and Spain

In the last survey +80% of the spaniards are against the war.

	31-01-2003 00:27									#37
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thx for the info

	31-01-2003 01:01									#38
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80% is the percentage of the Turkish people that oppose the war too.

	31-01-2003 01:02									#39
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A funny note on one of the really massive demosntrations that go on in Turkey against the war, on a sign they have written to their "government": Don't be a son of a Bush

	31-01-2003 02:42									#40
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quote: Don't be a son of a Bush

quote: Important EU countries took the time to assess if they were able to resist the renewed French-German couple or not. It is clearly a manoeuver from former "lesser" countries like Spain and Italy to show they are now equal actors. They chose to adress the most important topic publicly (this way, even Americans know about it), but you can expect them to counter French and German efforts in some other domains as well. At least, until the confrontation ends.

Good for Spain and Italy. It's time someone stood up to the self-serving leaders of Old Europe.

	31-01-2003 02:52									#41
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Drake : Remember the French-German ticket wasn't as self-serving as one would believe. Many European achievements of these last 40 years have been made because of idealism rather than simple greed (I know it sounds completely naive nowadays, but the goal of achieving longlasting peace in Europe wasn't driven by greed, and was extremely ambitious).
France and Germany played an impulse on Europe, and often it was against their economic interests (Germany is by far the highest contributor to EU's funds, and Spain has recieved tons of money for its development when it entered the Union).

The new ambition of the French-German ticket isn't exactly about serving themselves, it is about moving the EU forward, although in the direction dictated by the 2 powers. Italy and Spain want to have their say in the way Europe is going. I don't think this power struggle is about money or self interests, but something deeper.

	31-01-2003 03:08									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Drake : Remember the French-German ticket wasn't as self-serving as one would believe. Many European achievements of these last 40 years have been made because of idealism rather than simple greed (I know it sounds completely naive nowadays, but the goal of achieving longlasting peace in Europe wasn't driven by greed, and was extremely ambitious). France and Germany played an impulse on Europe, and often it was against their economic interests (Germany is by far the highest contributor to EU's funds, and Spain has recieved tons of money for its development when it entered the Union). The new ambition of the French-German ticket isn't exactly about serving themselves, it is about moving the EU forward, although in the direction dictated by the 2 powers. Italy and Spain want to have their say in the way Europe is going. I don't think this power struggle is about money or self interests, but something deeper.

At a time when US policy is being accused of being entirely self serving, and when the US govt is basically being accused of flat out lying, its difficult for an American not be eager to express cynicism about France and Germany.

Note how some here have looked for devious motivations for the 8 powers that signed today's letter - not possible that THEY are genuinely concerned about Iraqi WMD, the Iraqi people, and the credibility of the UNSC.

	31-01-2003 03:19									#43
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All this "Old Europe" crap from the Bush administration is just one more attempt to divide people into the you're with us ( "you're with the good guys" ) and the you're against us ( "you're evil" ).

I think that the comical thing is that all of a sudden the WoMD that Iraq is supposed to have is a must go to war issue when two years ago the USA didnt give 2 figs about it.

	31-01-2003 03:20									#44
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Germany and France clearly have a self-serving agenda, and they express it as any other EU country in the European Council, where all countries tweak European laws for their own interests. The opposition to war in Iraq was also clearly motivated by political interests (mainly to prove an international existence for these 2 countries, and to please the public opinion IMO)

However, I think the old French-German ticket wasn't "self-serving" in the meaning it wasn't oriented by pure greed (remember, I'm talking about the past here), and I think the renewed French-German ticket tries somehow to restore this ambition.
France and Germany express their greed in many other places, but not this one. There is a power struggle going on between former lesser countries and the 2 powers, which is about more than pure money or economical or short sighted interests. It is a struggle about who gets to decide the future of the Union.

	31-01-2003 03:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel All this "Old Europe" crap from the Bush administration is just one more attempt to divide people into the you're with us ( "you're with the good guys" ) and the you're against us ( "you're evil" ).

we're told over and over again we should be multilateral, and we should build a coalition. Why would they not jump at any sign that they DO have coalition partners???

	31-01-2003 03:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark we're told over and over again we should be multilateral, and we should build a coalition. Why would they not jump at any sign that they DO have coalition partners???

I can't follow you... who are "they" ?

	31-01-2003 03:28									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Germany and France clearly have a self-serving agenda, and they express it as any other EU country in the European Council, where all countries tweak European laws for their own interests. The opposition to war in Iraq was also clearly motivated by political interests (mainly to prove an international existence for these 2 countries, and to please the public opinion IMO) However, I think the old French-German ticket wasn't "self-serving" in the meaning it wasn't oriented by pure greed (remember, I'm talking about the past here), and I think the renewed French-German ticket tries somehow to restore this ambition. France and Germany express their greed in many other places, but not this one. There is a power struggle going on between former lesser countries and the 2 powers, which is about more than pure money or economical or short sighted interests. It is a struggle about who gets to decide the future of the Union.

sounds comprehensive. but the problem is, if this farce goes on this way, they will be no future of this union anymore.
what the vassal state's leaders did, was a diplomatic backstab, nothing else.

	31-01-2003 03:37									#48
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Oedo : I disagree with you

Sure, we could think Europe will develop no future, as this crisis might prove the inability of the French-German ticket to become the motor of European integration again, while the other countries cannot agree on anything more coherent than opposing the 2 big ones.
However, if we find that individual states cannot take steps forward, it can be a good occasion for commaunary institutions to do the job instead (like the European Parliament, the Convention for the future of Europe etc.)

Maybe all this mindless barking from the states is the best thing that could happen to Europe's future

	31-01-2003 03:56									#49
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I think saying there is an all out power struggle in Europe right now is a bit over the top, one is obviously dewveloping though.


Once Again Great Britain Will have to Fight the evil continentals to stop european hegamoney!
(Still shouldn't go into Iraq though )

	31-01-2003 04:15									#50
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quote: However, I think the old French-German ticket wasn't "self-serving" in the meaning it wasn't oriented by pure greed (remember, I'm talking about the past here)

I totally agree with you on this, Spiffor. The French-German alliance was originally created to achieve the most idealistic of goals; permanent peace in Europe. I sincerely respect the effort both France and Germany have put into building a united and peaceful Europe. The world is better off for their efforts.

However, the recent behavior of France and Germany is extremely disheartening, especially when viewed in the light of their noble past behavior. America has gone out of its way to involve our European allies in the decision-making process on Iraq, but our efforts have been repaid with a knife in the back. France and Germany aren't even listening to what the Bush administration has to say; vowing to defeat a second UN resolution before Blix even made his report shows that France and Germany have no interest in anything other than their narrow self interests.

"Old Europe" has already lost the respect of the American government and now it seems that some European governments feel the same way. Is this really what France and Germany want?

	31-01-2003 04:21									#51
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Well, the US Govt. has bought its lack of respect on itself, I mean they aren't waiting for Blix's report either...

	31-01-2003 04:26									#52
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quote: Well, the US Govt. has bought its lack of respect on itself, I mean they aren't waiting for Blix's report either...

Blix's report has already been made and the US did wait for it. Hell, Blix would have never gone back to Iraq if the US hadn't bowed to the wishes of its allies. The US is the one making all the concessions and in return we're getting nothing but empty rhetoric and self-serving behavior from our Old European "allies". Makes one wonder what the transatlantic relationship is worth anymore...

	31-01-2003 04:30									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten France and Germany aren't even listening to what the Bush administration has to say; vowing to defeat a second UN resolution before Blix even made his report shows that France and Germany have no interest in anything other than their narrow self interests.

Last time I checked, your great fearless leader said, that the United Stated will invade Iraq no matter what Blix finds and no matter what these meaningless UN pussies say. How is this different from the French and German behavior? Just Bush says, that he doesn't give a damn about the UN and its inspectors in one way (insisting on war), while France and Germany do the same in another way (insisting not to participate).

	31-01-2003 04:38									#54
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quote: Last time I checked, your great fearless leader said, that the United Stated will invade Iraq no matter what Blix finds and no matter what these meaningless UN pussies say.

I think you're hearing things. Bush has made it clear that he would allow the inspectors to do their job if the Iraqis were willing to fully cooperate. If the Iraqis don't cooperate (and they haven't), then weapons inspections are pointless. Bush has never been very gung ho on the inspections, since he knew that the chances of Iraq cooperating were slim, but at least he gave the Iraqis one last chance to avoid war.

	31-01-2003 04:59									#55
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There was no way that the Iraqis would ever be given the chance to appear cooperative.

	31-01-2003 05:03									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman There was no way that the Iraqis would ever be given the chance to appear cooperative.

Are you completely isolated from any and all news outlets? What exactly what you call what they have seemed intent on pissing away since the passage of UNSC Resolution 1441?

	31-01-2003 05:21									#57
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quote: Are you completely isolated from any and all news outlets? What exactly what you call what they have seemed intent on pissing away since the passage of UNSC Resolution 1441?

The Iraqis have been generally praised for their cooperation, particularly with regards to access to weapons sites. Most of the non-cooperation has been over trivia like U-2 flights or the Iraqis complaining that the inspectors are gathering intelligence.

No matter what they submit to, ever more intrusive measures will be demanded, in order to provide a casus belli.

	31-01-2003 05:27									#58
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It would be interesting to discover where all of the 'unaccounted for' WMDs that the Iraqis used to have ended up...

	31-01-2003 05:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The Iraqis have been generally praised for their cooperation,

By who?

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament that was demanded of it." - Hans Blix

	31-01-2003 06:05									#60
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Amazing how the popularity of surveys jump among posters when, coincidentally, said surveys *support* the posters' viewpoints. **whistles** Wow, I never realized how a "scientific" poll (generally speaking here) of 1,028 adults could represent the will of any good-sized nation.

A poll-driven world, indeed.

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