30-01-2003 15:39									#1
	Okay France, Germany do you stand with us or against us? Inflate your Upload Space

We already know the Greeks are against us. The following is from the NY Time I think. Comment from America haters are not only welcomed but expected.

___________________________________________

January 30, 2003

Europe and America must stand united


THE real bond between the United States and Europe is the values we share: democracy, individual freedom, human rights and the Rule of Law. These values crossed the Atlantic with those who sailed from Europe to help create the USA. Today they are under greater threat than ever.
The attacks of 11 September showed just how far terrorists — the enemies of our common values — are prepared to go to destroy them. Those outrages were an attack on all of us. In standing firm in defence of these principles, the governments and people of the United States and Europe have amply demonstrated the strength of their convictions. Today more than ever, the transatlantic bond is a guarantee of our freedom.

We in Europe have a relationship with the United States which has stood the test of time. Thanks in large part to American bravery, generosity and far-sightedness, Europe was set free from the two forms of tyranny that devastated our continent in the 20th century: Nazism and Communism. Thanks, too, to the continued cooperation between Europe and the United States we have managed to guarantee peace and freedom on our continent. The transatlantic relationship must not become a casualty of the current Iraqi regime’s persistent attempts to threaten world security.

In today’s world, more than ever before, it is vital that we preserve that unity and cohesion. We know that success in the day-to-day battle against terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction demands unwavering determination and firm international cohesion on the part of all countries for whom freedom is precious.

The Iraqi regime and its weapons of mass destruction represent a clear threat to world security. This danger has been explicitly recognised by the United Nations. All of us are bound by Security Council Resolution 1441, which was adopted unanimously. We Europeans have since reiterated our backing for Resolution 1441, our wish to pursue the UN route and our support for the Security Council, at the Prague Nato Summit and the Copenhagen European Council.

In doing so, we sent a clear, firm and unequivocal message that we would rid the world of the danger posed by Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction. We must remain united in insisting that his regime is disarmed. The solidarity, cohesion and determination of the international community are our best hope of achieving this peacefully. Our strength lies in unity.

The combination of weapons of mass destruction and terrorism is a threat of incalculable consequences. It is one at which all of us should feel concerned. Resolution 1441 is Saddam Hussein’s last chance to disarm using peaceful means. The opportunity to avoid greater confrontation rests with him. Sadly this week the UN weapons inspectors have confirmed that his long-established pattern of deception, denial and non-compliance with UN Security Council resolutions is continuing.

Europe has no quarrel with the Iraqi people. Indeed, they are the first victims of Iraq’s current brutal regime. Our goal is to safeguard world peace and security by ensuring that this regime gives up its weapons of mass destruction. Our governments have a common responsibility to face this threat. Failure to do so would be nothing less than negligent to our own citizens and to the wider world.

The United Nations Charter charges the Security Council with the task of preserving international peace and security. To do so, the Security Council must maintain its credibility by ensuring full compliance with its resolutions. We cannot allow a dictator to systematically violate those Resolutions. If they are not complied with, the Security Council will lose its credibility and world peace will suffer as a result.

We are confident that the Security Council will face up to its responsibilities.

José María Aznar, Spain
José Manuel Durão Barroso, Portugal
Silvio Berlusconi, Italy
Tony Blair, United Kingdom
Václav Havel, Czech Republic
Peter Medgyessy, Hungary
Leszek Miller, Poland
Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Denmark

	30-01-2003 16:36									#2
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quote: Okay France, Germany do you stand with us or against us?

Black-white Thinking.

Also it should be mentioned how many of theses States are current Members of the Security COuncil..

	30-01-2003 16:42									#3
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Yeah, its black or white. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

It really shouldn't be mentioned who is on the Security Council because the UN is meaningless to Americans. If anyone thinks that the UN can stop the US they are in dreamland.

Bush only detoured to the UN to get a majority in Congress.

	30-01-2003 16:43									#4
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Yeah, its black or white. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. It really shouldn't be mentioned who is on the Security Council because the UN is meaningless to Americans. If anyone thinks that the UN can stop the US they are in dreamland. Bush only detoured to the UN to get a majority in Congress.

well that menas its not meaningless

	30-01-2003 16:44									#5
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To clarify, Bush went to the UN to blunt Democratic efforts to paint him in a bad light with the voting public. The result was a Republican majority in both houses of Congress.

	30-01-2003 16:56									#6
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quote: Okay France, Germany do you stand with us or against us?

Why there are no intermediate choises available?

	30-01-2003 17:06									#7
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I have nothing against "standing by you" as long you don´t expect that we only say "Yes Sir!" to every US decision.

quote: Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

So what exactly will you do when Germany acts in another way?

BTW, my personal POV may differ in the Iraq issue from the official German position, however, that doesn´t change the fact that we decide ourselves if we agree or not.

	30-01-2003 17:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo quote: Okay France, Germany do you stand with us or against us? Why there are no intermediate choises available?

Yes, where´s the Banana option?

	30-01-2003 17:14									#9
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quote: Okay France, Germany do you stand with us or against us?

Against you.

So what do you do now ? Bomb the **** out of both ?

	30-01-2003 17:17									#10
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BTW, I think Germany should invade France again.

First , because it is our hobby, second to prevent evil Le Pen from getting access to WMD in the future. Will the USA stand with us or against us in the struggle for peace?

	30-01-2003 17:42									#11
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I don't agree that the US only went the UN root to stop the democrats painting Bush as bad, although that may have been one of many reasons, I believe the overwhelming argument (as stated in the declaration) is that standing firm against Sadam as a united front has more chance of bringing Sadam down peacefully, than it does any other way.

Sure the US could go it alone, and push Sadam out, but im sure you'd agree, better to acheive your goals and not lose a single American life, than to win and lose lives.

The French and Germans have every right to disagree with any action they feel is incorrect, however, I think they delivered a political own goal by openly critising the US position, the only person who was laughing was Saddam !!

It would be far more constructive if the French and Germans used the many other means at their disposal, to let the Americans know they are not happy, if they feel the need to go public, then have some constructive alternative !

	30-01-2003 17:47									#12
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick It really shouldn't be mentioned who is on the Security Council because the UN is meaningless to Americans. If anyone thinks that the UN can stop the US they are in dreamland.

What was again the reason of this war? To enforce UNSC resolution 1441? How comes anyone would consider to fight a war about a meaningless thing like this? Come on, what's the real reason?

	30-01-2003 17:52									#13
	Re: Okay France, Germany do you stand with us or against us? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick THE real bond between the United States and Europe is the values we share: democracy, individual freedom, human rights and the Rule of Law. These values crossed the Atlantic with those who sailed from Europe to help create the USA. Today they are under greater threat than ever.

That's idealized rubbish. We went around the world killing and oppressing people, then some colonists in America decided to revolt and carry on killing natives.

And this seems to have forgotten all the wars between European states and America.

quote: We in Europe have a relationship with the United States which has stood the test of time. Thanks in large part to American bravery, generosity and far-sightedness, Europe was set free from the two forms of tyranny that devastated our continent in the 20th century: Nazism and Communism.

Wow, thankyou. I guess Britain did nothing at all against the Nazis then.

quote: Our strength lies in unity.

Of course, but why does that unity have to be dictated by the US government? Can't we all be united for peace.


I'm not trying to be anti-American here, but saying that Europe and America have always been best buds united in the cause of freedom is ridiculous.

The only way to prevent terrorism is to not piss peoples off - even with the strictest immigration laws and defences terrorist attacks are still possible.

Unless of course, we want a 1984-style society.

	30-01-2003 18:14									#14
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick If anyone thinks that the UN can stop the US they are in dreamland.

The idea is not to dream that UN can stop USA, it is to dream that USA freely respect the UN decisions.

Fascism: rule by force; I rule because I'm the strongest; the strong makes what he wants and has the right to force the weak to obey.
Democracy: although I know I am the strongest, smartest, richest, whateverst,... I freely agree the rule of the majority.

That is my dream about the world, the UN and the USA.
UN has no strenth by itself, only the goodwill of each member.
My dream is that the US will respect the UN decisions, the same way US citizens respect the US parliament decisions.
Ordinary US citizens may be forced by the police to respect the law, but what force the police to respect it?

If anyone thinks that the parliament can stop the army they are in dreamland.
Correct, but:
What prevent the armies of a democratic state to take power and overthrow the parliament?
Force? or Respect of the democratic institutions?

But I guess I live in dreamland...

	30-01-2003 18:23									#15
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I was just wondering how come that 20 years ago Rumsfeld and what's his name Saddam where best pals? I also wonder how many of the "illegal" and other weapons that Iraq has were financed by the avg American tax payer as the States assisted Iraq in their war against Iraq? Same thing with OBL!

It's like a greek tragedy: Papa loves his kids
Papa abandons kids
kids come back to haunt papa
a fight ensues

The only difference is that this is real and fact is that there enough "tyrrants" out there destroying and ravaging their own people and their countries and nobody is doing anything about it.

So before you go on accusing people and countries I would first look to my own gov't and its motives. There may be more than what meets the eye or in this case eras!

So long...

PS: This is not to say that Saddam is an innocent little man, he's evil. He's as evil as they come...

	30-01-2003 18:26									#16
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Sorry DP.

Last edited by The Pioneer on 31-01-2003 at 17:12

	30-01-2003 18:31									#17
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I don't know about France and Germany, but I'm against you.

	30-01-2003 19:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What was again the reason of this war? To enforce UNSC resolution 1441? How comes anyone would consider to fight a war about a meaningless thing like this? Come on, what's the real reason?

[anti-america-mode on]

What does Iraq have, what for example Ruanda doesn't have?
Nobody gave a flying f**k about the killings in Ruanda some years ago. Nobody would have given a flying f**k about Iraq invading that small emirate, if it wasn't for that wonderful black fluid which makes cars go.
The current war against terror is just a cheap excuse for an invasion of Iraq in order to install a puppet regime which will give America what America wants: Oil. Nothing less, nothing more!

And I don't see a reason why Germany should assist the USA in its neo-imperialistic war.

[anti-america-mode off]

	30-01-2003 19:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Sorry DL.

Freudian slip?

quote: Originally posted by Der PH What does Iraq have, what for example Ruanda doesn't have? Nobody gave a flying f**k about the killings in Ruanda some years ago. Nobody would have given a flying f**k about Iraq invading that small emirate, if it wasn't for that wonderful black fluid which makes cars go. The current war against terror is just a cheap excuse for an invasion of Iraq in order to install a puppet regime which will give America what America wants: Oil. Nothing less, nothing more! And I don't see a reason why Germany should assist the USA in its neo-imperialistic war.

Thanks for clearing this up. Although I don't think it's that simple. But oil is always a nice to have, especially if it's the second largest deposit in the world.

	30-01-2003 19:34									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Thanks for clearing this up.

Always glad to help anyone

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Although I don't think it's that simple. But oil is always a nice to have, especially if it's the second largest deposit in the world.

Well, I can't help being simple-minded.
I don't think I told anybody a big news with my little flame post, but sometimes answers really are simple.