30-01-2003 16:18									#1
	Guidance on bombardment Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

How do I know when I've bombarded a city enough to have weakened all the defenders? Any rules of thumb?
Thanks

	30-01-2003 16:52									#2
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Well, you can count. "One infantry down to 2 hp, mark, one regular down to 1" etc, until same units start to appear. Personally, I allways bomb all of them to their reds...

	30-01-2003 17:02									#3
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Best not to bombard cities that you want to capture as it can destroy the very things you are after - improvements and population. As a rule of thumb I find that 10+ bombard units do the job. Remember that the enemy will heal in its turn, so a prolonged bombardment over many turns will only give the AI time to bring/build reenforcements.

BTW, I reccommend not to use bombard units until artillery is developed, with the exception that catapults can be useful against Greek Hoplites, if you HAVE to attack them before you can get 4 attack units like Knights/Longbowmen.

-Jam

	30-01-2003 19:23									#4
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Remember that units in citys(size 7-12) and metros(13+) have a defencive bonus(50 or 100%) so you may want to take your time and kill some citizens first so that bonus gets lower.

	30-01-2003 19:33									#5
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I want those citizens, Bongo. I want them to be my citizens. They add to my production, income, science and score. I think its worth taking a few extra casualties from the attacking soldiers for the benefit of getting a population that may have taken years to grow. Also there is the moral question : do I kill civillians to make life easier for my soldiers, as the USA did in Vietnam for example? Hmm, not so easy is it. The lives of my soldiers, who are paid to die if nesscessary, or the lives of innocents, who belong to my "enemy"

-Jam

	30-01-2003 19:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Well, you can count. "One infantry down to 2 hp, mark, one regular down to 1" etc, until same units start to appear. Personally, I allways bomb all of them to their reds...

Where do such messages appear. The only ones I see are when bombardment fails, when an improvement is toasted, and when a citizen dies

	30-01-2003 20:11									#7
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If you have a unit next to the city then you will see the top unit in the stack defending the city. It is always what is meant to be the best defending unit. If it only has one hit point left (in the red) then stop bombarding and send in the assault squad.

	30-01-2003 20:42									#8
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quote: Originally posted by tibbits Where do such messages appear. The only ones I see are when bombardment fails, when an improvement is toasted, and when a citizen dies

In the game preferences (ctrl-P) there is an option to "show best defender in city" or something similar -- with the preference on, you will see the best defending unit fortified in the city square.

The "best" defender may then change as you bombard -- for instance, a 4 hp infantry might lose 2 hps and be replaced by another 4 hp infantry; this infantry also loses 2 hps and is replaced by a 4 hp rifleman; the rifleman loses 2 and is replaced by a 2hp infantry -- you now know that the city is defended by 2 infantry (both at 2 hp now) and a rifleman (also at 2 hps). There could also be a healthy but very weak unit in the stack as well -- i.e., an old warrior or something.

Catt

	30-01-2003 20:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace If you have a unit next to the city then you will see the top unit in the stack defending the city. It is always what is meant to be the best defending unit. If it only has one hit point left (in the red) then stop bombarding and send in the assault squad.

Not quite. A vet infantry down to 1HP will appear as top unit but the city could contain a conscript rifleman or guerilla or two. Not that it should make much difference.

	30-01-2003 21:33									#10
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those citizens can cause you a lot of trouble, that's why i usually starve them to city size 1, 2 or 3 and speedgrow the city (with own workers and irigation&railroading of the tiles around).

you might lose some trade and time, but you don't need to worry about lost units caused by flips and cities going into disorder while you still have to pay for those improvements.

however, i do wish precision bombarding would be possible. today, artillery can target small buildings and objects and are very exact (except with strong winds, etc.)

also, radar stations and outposts should be destroyable with shelling

	30-01-2003 21:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Not quite. A vet infantry down to 1HP will appear as top unit but the city could contain a conscript rifleman or guerilla or two.

well further bombardment might do furth hp damage, yes. But at this point the conclusion that there is nothing better than a 1hp infantry defending the city is a correct one.

quote: Not that it should make much difference.

indeed

	30-01-2003 22:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf those citizens can cause you a lot of trouble, that's why i usually starve them to city size 1, 2 or 3 and speedgrow the city (with own workers and irigation&railroading of the tiles around). you might lose some trade and time, but you don't need to worry about lost units caused by flips and cities going into disorder while you still have to pay for those improvements. however, i do wish precision bombarding would be possible. today, artillery can target small buildings and objects and are very exact (except with strong winds, etc.) also, radar stations and outposts should be destroyable with shelling

I hate to wait to starve a city, the longer that it exists is the more chance of a flip, just get a settler over there and abandon/refound.

As far as bombarding goes, Artillery is still not accurate enough to give it the precision capability (and you should be able to choose your target with precision munitions) A modern artillery unit can use satallite coordinates to target a building but the shells are still unguided, and have a significant margin for error due to atmopheric densities and other factors. I agree with you that radar stations and outposts should be able to be destroyed with bombardment.

	30-01-2003 23:36									#13
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no, it won't flip so easily because if you starve the city, all the residents are entertainers and happy. happy cities (maybe even WLTKD) seldom flip... specially if you've placed 5-6 units to guard

	30-01-2003 23:42									#14
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but you need approx. 54 units to prevent a chance of a flip for a size 10 city with 3 resistors. Care to know how many for a 20 size city with 13 resistors? Get rid of the city, you can usually keep it for a few turns, long enough to get a settler there but to wait 20 turns to get the city down to one? Waste of time & you still have the foreign civ's culture to factor in the chance of a flip even after the city is starved. Unless the civ is exterminated, you are better off just replacing the city.

	31-01-2003 01:33									#15
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Yup. I generally bomb or bombard the heck out of them until the guy I see in the city is in the red, and then attack.

I don't care if I destroy buildings, becuase the first to usualy go are cultural buildings, and these leave when you take over the town anyway.

I don't care about killing citizens, because they are always really pissy anyway, and increase corruption and odds of a culture flip.

	31-01-2003 03:48									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber but you need approx. 54 units to prevent a chance of a flip for a size 10 city with 3 resistors....you are better off just replacing the city.

Huh??

Recheck the city flip formulas. I think I recall more important than number of units was the number of tiles under AI culture influence.

I don't need 54 units to stop a flip. If a city is really surrounded, it might only extend it's new influence 9 tiles, 8 in each direction. the other 12 tiles, future expanded size are still under the influence of AI culture. These are the real trouble makers. Then you just keep about 5 ancient units in bad city to pacify resisters and keep about 7-20 good units in adjacent tiles.

I used to bombard a lot, but now try to restrict bombardment. I would love a Dumb Bombardment option. Current "smart bombardment" destroys improvements but keeps people alive. I want dumb bombardment, keep improvements but get rid of potential resisters.

== PF

	31-01-2003 04:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf also, radar stations and outposts should be destroyable with shelling

They are. The order of bombardment damage outside of towns / cities is:
1. Units
2. RR
3. Roads (with irr / mine if any)
4. Outpost / fort / radar tower

	31-01-2003 04:36									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus 4. Outpost / fort / radar tower

Not so sure about that.

fort-- yes
outpost-- unknown
radar tower--no?

Every time I try to bombard a radar tower I got the red, not allowed symbol. It always took a foot unit to get rid of towers

But then again, my memory may be faulty. I have regressed to civ3 instead of PTW and can't be 100% certain of actions.

Anyone played this month that can give us a definite yes or no?

-- PF

	31-01-2003 14:43									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not sure if I've tried with artys, but I'm sure I've destroyed outposts and radars with planes. I have lethal bombardment for my planes though, but I don't think it should make any difference against these structures.

	31-01-2003 14:57									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Played PTW yesterday but it is my first game and I havn't seen any outposts yet. I don't think I will build an outpost myself just to see if I can bombard it.

BTW, noticed that when you destroy a city there will be ruins now. I know it's only eye-candy but it's still kinda cool

War of Art, I dont care that much about foreign citizens, often they are worth more to me dead or as workers than as citizens. They are likely to be very corrupt or to flip back any time. Of course it all depends on the situation. If they will be productive and unlikely to flip back I try to keep them alive.

	31-01-2003 18:43									#21
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Definitive yes.

	31-01-2003 20:04									#22
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Moonwolf,

Thanks for the correction.

== PF

	04-02-2003 06:42									#23
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Useful Bombarding Strategy that I've employed with great success:

(assuming you have the units & lots of arty)
surround your opponent's city--all 20 tiles--with your units. This keeps him from gaining any production from those tiles. Next, bombard until you see no defender w/ more than 1 hp. Then use your 20 units to take and hold the city. If you have enough arty--30+--you can do this in 1 or 2 turns. Then rush the cultural and happiness bldgs. In just a few turns you will have a city that will be happy and becoming productive.

If you kill some citizens and/or destroy some improvements don't fret too much. Even if you took the city intact, it would be many many turns before it becomes productive. What, with all the resistors and all.

Useful tips:
--Cities w/ 1 pop DO NOT FLIP!!!!!, and all the new citezenry will be your citizens.
--When you take a city you have to build culture bldgs anyway.

	05-02-2003 13:26									#24
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Anyone noticed, that a naval unit might have better defence than the couple of land units in the city? I've lost few units, thinking "Ha! only ships! I'll sink'em!" and then run into infantry.

	06-02-2003 00:17									#25
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cool

but the AI knows your defence and in MP you won't usually get to battleship/infantry.

	06-02-2003 05:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Anyone noticed, that a naval unit might have better defence than the couple of land units in the city? I've lost few units, thinking "Ha! only ships! I'll sink'em!" and then run into infantry.

No this will never happen. Land units will always defend against attacks. and naval ships are destroyed when captured. Since the best defender is always shown the ship will never be shown as a defender unless there are no land forces in the city. (unless you have a ship activated at the time)

	06-02-2003 05:37									#27
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If a city is being invaded and you have ships within the city radius, you ought to at least have the option of moving them out. Sure, they might take some damage from enemy fire - especially if artillery or tanks or mech. infantry are involved - but enough to allow them to get away. That way you would be encouraged to use naval bombardment at one poijnt or another. Or at least blockades. I hardly ever see any naval battles in my games.

	06-02-2003 15:35									#28
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No, I've had cities lookin empty, only a destroyer or similar, (usually after few nukes), then rushing to grab it, only to encounter infantry. I've been playing with the patch succestion, can't remember whether destroyers have better defence in that or something...

	06-02-2003 19:20									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun No, I've had cities lookin empty, only a destroyer or similar, (usually after few nukes), then rushing to grab it, only to encounter infantry. I've been playing with the patch succestion, can't remember whether destroyers have better defence in that or something...

That has never happened to be and my destroyers have a better defense than Infantry, so I don't know how this is happening to you. Hmm, check and make sure that you do not have infantry or Guerillas flagged as invisible.

Also if your look was on a previous turn it's possible they have re-inforced the city or used the draft.

It also may be a bug, send an e-mail or PM to the Firaxians after ruling out all logical reasons.

	06-02-2003 23:30									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun No, I've had cities lookin empty, only a destroyer or similar, (usually after few nukes), then rushing to grab it, only to encounter infantry. I've been playing with the patch succestion, can't remember whether destroyers have better defence in that or something...

I had something similar happen recently -- the city defender was visibly a cavalry (after having destroyed a modern armor or two first), but my next attack somehow produced another modern armor as defender. It happened three or four times in a row. I figured out that the "surprise" defenders were units loaded on a transport located in the city -- they didn't show up as units defending the city until attacked, but they also didn't just sit in the transport, to be sunk when I took the city. I don;t remember this happening under vanilla civ 3 (my incident was PTW 1.14f).

I would venture a guess that underneath your destroyer was a transport and inside the transport were infantry. When you attacked the city, an infantry popped out of the transport to defend.

Catt