30-01-2003 16:31									#1
	Do all nations have debt? Is the US debt the worst? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So, who has the dough? Is it all in oil countries? China? In the hands of the rich people?

How bad is the US national debt compared to the national wealth? How are places like Germany and Japan doing?

The debt worries me.

	30-01-2003 16:35									#2
	Suffering from ads?

Our debt is around 60% of the GDP. . something around 67BilUSD.

	30-01-2003 16:42									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ours is under 40% i think although its going up

	30-01-2003 17:29									#4
	Re: Do all nations have debt? Is the US debt the worst? Inflate your Upload Space

Belgium: 108.5% in 2001;
last years:
109.6% in 2000;
114.9% in 1999;
119.5% in 1998;
124.8% in 1997;

	30-01-2003 17:42									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think pretty much all nations have debt. Except Switzerland, who's mountains are filled with gold and nuclear weapons.

	30-01-2003 17:47									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, most nations have debt .. Mostly comming from Borrowing from people (as in Government Bonds), private investment companies etc .. Of course, country's also borrow from other countries, but Im sure the US could pay off its debt in a flash if it taxed everybody a few % extra for a few years (and they payed up, and didn't flee to somewhere else .. big if's).

	30-01-2003 17:49									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Finland loaned about 100B €'s in 1989 - 1994...
15% from our budget, every year, go to the interest rates...

	30-01-2003 17:57									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i dont thinknorway has any debt. we've got too much money actually . using more of it on e.g. better health care and tax reliefs would cause inflation, or so say the government. a lot of people doesn't agree/understand this so they go off and vote for the right-wing populists

	30-01-2003 18:14									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Norway is living in a Midas-nightmare.

Is it fun to spend €10 on a pizza?

	30-01-2003 18:23									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

a large pizza in a restaurant costs twice that.

	30-01-2003 18:26									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here's a site to cheer you up Lancer.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

	30-01-2003 18:26									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

what's happening to the swedish kr? 1 SEK used to be about 1 NOK. now it's more like 1 SEK = 0,8 NOK

	30-01-2003 18:30									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Doesn't work for me... :/

	30-01-2003 18:31									#14
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by red_jon Except Switzerland

and Luxemburg.

quote: , who's mountains are filled with gold and nuclear weapons.

Shelters, it's shelters, not weapons.

	30-01-2003 18:53									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

hi ,

in the country with the european capital , belgium the dept runs like 110 percent of the GNP , .....

well no wonder , people pay 50 % income tax , half of the economy is done under the table , .....

and the politcal parties are more occupied with the ME then the problems they have in belgium , ....

so US debt is still okay

it would be intresting for a country to build its debt to almost nothing , the intrest on those debts alone is incredible , without debts there would be more money , more jobs , more food , more money to give as foreign aide , .... etc , .....but it looks as some people never learned that , ...

have a nice debt free day

	30-01-2003 18:57									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf what's happening to the swedish kr? 1 SEK used to be about 1 NOK. now it's more like 1 SEK = 0,8 NOK

The central bank gave up the defense of the swedish kr in 1992 that lead to a de facto devaluation bigger than the planned one in 1982. Good for the export industry, bad for the rest of us.

	30-01-2003 19:38									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by panag hi , in the country with the european capital , belgium the dept runs like 110 percent of the GNP , .....

Digged in the 70's

quote: well no wonder , people pay 50 % income tax , half of the economy is done under the table , .....

No comment (re: I +/- agree)

quote: and the politcal parties are more occupied with the ME then the problems they have in belgium , ....

Well, not exactly. They were very occupied with it at the time we were presiding the EU. They went there, not as belgians, but as europeans...

Now if you speak about the universal competence thing, well, its not only ME, but also Europe (Milosevic), SAmerica(Pinochet), Asia(?), Africa(Rwanda)... but that's something else.

quote: have a nice debt free day

	30-01-2003 19:43									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

As a percent of GDP the U.S.'s debt is quite small. Last I heard Italy had the highest debt as a percent of GDP.

	30-01-2003 19:49									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If one should be fair about this one has to take the assets of the state into consideration. A state usually owns a lot of buildings and companies that improves the figures a bit. I don't have a clue how much it does that in any country though.

	30-01-2003 19:58									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No, Japan has a much higher number. 155%

UK @ 36%
US @ 57%
Euro Area @ 70%

	30-01-2003 20:30									#21
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dry Digged in the 70's No comment (re: I +/- agree) Well, not exactly. They were very occupied with it at the time we were presiding the EU. They went there, not as belgians, but as europeans... Now if you speak about the universal competence thing, well, its not only ME, but also Europe (Milosevic), SAmerica(Pinochet), Asia(?), Africa(Rwanda)... but that's something else.

hi ,

according to the belgian fed its like 106.9

have a nice day

	30-01-2003 20:31									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

AH, 22,161? Is that all? Where do I send the check?



So most countries have debt, some twice US debt per capita and Japan x3. No wonder Japan has been in the pits for the last couple of decades.

Eventually there must be a train wreck, yes? When debt and interest payments exceed income from taxes? When will that be, is it possible to set a date...assuming an average 3% growth rate? When does Japan go under, I assume they would be the first...and would they pull the rest down too?

	30-01-2003 20:39									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Estonia has virtually nil, save for a maybe a hundred mil from IMF to build its currency board. They will do a debut Eurobond someday this year, but the banks will be bled to death by competition for the mandate. Sten, short Estonia, long Lithuania

	30-01-2003 22:19									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Its all Keynes Fault...

US debt was decreasing under Clinton.


Germany: 59,8
1.241.127.392.468 €

http://www.staatsverschuldung.de/ausland.htm

Last edited by Main_Brain on 30-01-2003 at 22:28

	31-01-2003 21:44									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ausland: Europa

Wenn man die deutsche Staatsverschuldung mit der anderer Länder vergleicht, muss man berücksichtigen, dass die Volkswirtschaften verschieden groß sind. Deshalb wird die Gesamtverschuldung nicht in absoluten Geldbeträgen ausgedrückt, sondern in Beziehung zum Bruttoinlandsprodukt (BIP) gesetzt. Nach den Maastricht-Kriterien für die EURO-Währungsunion soll die Gesamtverschuldung 60% des BIP nicht übersteigen. - Für den 31.12.2001 nennt die Europäische Union (EUROSTAT) folgende Zahlen:


Belgien 107,5% Auf den ersten Blick erscheint es zwar so, als lägen zwischen den Ländern gewaltige, entscheidende Unterschiede. Und tatsächlich ist die Gesamtverschuldung in Italien und Belgien zweieinhalbmal so hoch so hoch wie im Vereinigten Königreich.

Aber das verstellt den Blick darauf, dass alle europäischen Länder viel zu hohe Schulden haben! Alle sind belastet durch in Jahrzehnten aufgehäufte Schulden, die jetzt die Steuern erhöhen und das Aushandeln politischer Kompromisse erschweren. Von den vier großen Staaten betreibt nur ein einziger eine konsequente Politik des Schuldenabbaus: Großbritannien.

Weiter muss man daran zweifeln, ob die Maastricht-Kriterien ernst genommen werden. Schon jetzt nehmen drei Länder (Belgien, Griechenland, Italien) an der Währungsunion teil, bei denen die 60%-Grenze dramatisch überschritten ist. Und es erscheint fraglich, ob bei einer neuerlichen Überschreitung der Grenzen wirklich Sanktionen gegen das betreffende Land verhängt werden, wie vorgesehen: Schließlich geht es dem Land dann gerade besonders schlecht.

Wenn man alle 15 EU-Staaten gemeinsam betrachtet, haben sie im Jahre 2001 ihre Verschuldung wieder erhöht, während es im Vorjahr wegen guter Konjunktur zu einem Abbau gekommen war. Einziger Lichtblick war 2001, dass die Verschuldung langsamer wuchs als die EU-Volkswirtschaften. Das wird 2002 wohl anders.
Dänemark 44,5%
Deutschland 59,8%
Finnland 43,6%
Frankreich 57,2%
Griechenland 99,7%
Irland 36,6%
Italien 109,4%
Luxemburg 5,5%
Niederlande 53,2%
Österreich 61,7%
Portugal 55,6%
Schweden 56,0%
Spanien 57,2%
Vereinigtes Königreich 39,0%


hi ,

WTF , what are they doing in belgium , .....

sjeezus , those people should play a game of civ ones in a while , .....

have a nice day

	31-01-2003 22:20									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

UK's is good because of the excellent financial management of the last hmm 9 years bar the last 2.

We're gonna pay for Brown's splurge on the NHS.

	31-01-2003 22:29									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

A couple of facts about national debt.

First, usually the owners of the debt are the citizens of the same country. For example, US citizens own most of our debt. In this way we (as a country) are not paying out the interest on the debt. We just pay each other. It's called a transfer payment. If foreigners own your debt then the interest payed on your debt leaves the country.

Second, national debt usually much less of an adverse effect on the economy that most people believe. It really has no effect on interest rates, inflation, employment, investment etc.. However, in general it is a transfer in income to the wealthy from the tax payers. Often these people are in the same econo-class so it make little difference. When taxes are weighed heavily on the middle class and the interest is high on the debt you will see the disparity in income increase though.

edit: one more, debt never really has to be paid off. you just don't want it to increase faster than your tax base.

	31-01-2003 23:21									#28
	Uhhh....right.... Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It really has no effect on interest rates, inflation, employment, investment etc..

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you just said that there is no such thing as fiscal or monetary policy. I think that will come as news to most people, not just economists.

	31-01-2003 23:30									#29
	Re: Uhhh....right.... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Not to put too fine a point on it, but you just said that there is no such thing as fiscal or monetary policy. I think that will come as news to most people, not just economists.

Adam Smith, I know you are just trying to get me riled. Just to let you know, I'm not even bothered thay you are once again saying that I said something that I didn't say.

A budget deficit will certainly have an effect on interest rates, but the debt itself does not have an effect. That is, interest rates aren't going to keep increasing just because of the national debt.

	31-01-2003 23:31									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

"A budget deficit will certainly have an effect on interest rates, but the debt itself does not have an effect."