31-01-2003 08:11									#31
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX china, only if they conscript every person in their country to fight for them. a billion men with pitchforks charging the enemy. you can only shoot so many

Would you use a pithfork like a spear? Then obviously the chinese would wipe out whole divisions of Russian armor. At least according to Civ 3 debates.



ACK!

	31-01-2003 08:20									#32
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Bear & The Dragon was annoying in that it took about 800 pages before the shooting started and then in 50 pages or so ( a day real time ), the US has won easily again. *yawn*

I used to enjoy Clancy's books but recently the OTT patriotrism and the really annoying representation of us "Brits" ( a term I hate just as much as Clancy's other favourite term for us - "limeys" ), as pretty useless militarily and prepared to follow his American characters anywhere at any time.

Back to the topic, the Russian's military is still pretty weak after the last few years following the debacle of Chechnya and so in any convential war - I'd expect China to do quite well. Bring nukes into the equation and the cockroaches win.

	31-01-2003 08:24									#33
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Russia, only because the US would be quicker to help Russia then China.

This scenario is not farfetch. China has been crying about the lands it sold to Russia after WW2.


Say, where's ol' Tass? Shouldn't he be shooting his mouth off in this thread about now?

	31-01-2003 08:44									#34
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Technology rules - Russia wins.

	31-01-2003 09:19									#35
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If you limit to current forces and non-nuclear - Russia, hands down.

	31-01-2003 10:14									#36
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Russia, definetly.

	31-01-2003 10:15									#37
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A combined Napelese-Bhutan forces would win.

	31-01-2003 10:23									#38
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"Russa Vs China: Who would win?"

Freindship.
No matter how Yanks wants it, we will not fight with each other. On the other hand...we can always try to cooperate even a bit closer and start to kick some 'star&stripes' a$ses. This is much likely scenario than war against each other.

And DaShi

	31-01-2003 10:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The United States would win. It'd be great for us if the Russians and Chinese annihilated each other...

Keep dreaming.

	31-01-2003 10:26									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Luk Russia, better arms, better fire power, better weaponry etc. Chinas has 10 times more people, but it does not matter if that people will not have arms to fight (that is why doctrine of police forces says that in battle with demonstrators there should be a ratio 10:1

I'm shocked Heresson.

	31-01-2003 10:54									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 Say, where's ol' Tass? Shouldn't he be shooting his mouth off in this thread about now?

In bed, vomiting.

Anyway, I have to agree with serb here. Friendship would prevail over everything because, well, China and Russia would never get into a war.

However, in this incredibly unlikely situation, I'd say that Russia would win. Superior technology, nukes, and it has the political support of many countries (and China in a pre-emptive strike would be at a political disadvtange).

Oh, and Tom Clancy books..... He's become so "patriotic" that it COMPLETLY ruins his books now.

	31-01-2003 10:55									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The United States would win. It'd be great for us if the Russians and Chinese annihilated each other...

Not quite.....

But again, quite simply theres a higher chance of Russia and China combining agianst the US then there is of them fighting each other.

	31-01-2003 10:58									#43
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Yup. Both countries realise that a war between them with the US looming is A Stupid Idea.

	31-01-2003 11:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I'd think China would win a non-nuclear war. While Russia does have spme very advanced weapons, the Russian military is in a state of disrepair right now, extremely low morale, people not made, officers being forced to work as taxi drivers at night for more income, soldiers beating each other up...

A war on the Mother Land would bring them together...
besides, the Russians would only have to hold the chinese off till winter... let the cold do the rest
Hey, its happened dramatically twice already, why not a thrid time?

	31-01-2003 11:58									#45
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China could take a little territory, but not all of Russia.

I can't picture 500 million Chinese with pitchforks changing into the icy tudra.

	31-01-2003 12:31									#46
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The losing side would be far more likely to be the one on the offensive. In the current political climate anyway there is very little chance of a war going strategic-nuclear, but there's a good chance that a side on the defensive could get away with using tactical weapons against foreign forces on its own soil.

Even without this element the majority of the conflict (assuming a PRC offensive) would be fought in Siberia. Nobody goes anywhere in Siberia very quickly, opposing enemy forces or not - giving the Russians time to transfer forces from Europe or Central Asia (assuming an absence of a threat in those theatres).
The technology aspect is a no brainer. China has made good strides recently but is still far inferior to Russia. Most of their most effective military hardware comes from Russia directly or is Russian-designed and manufactured under license.
Combine these aspects and the smaller, more advanced, defensive Russian forces should be able to handle superior Chinese numbers.
If the PRC were able to achieve some form of strategic surprise, create unrest or even full uprisings in central Asia to tie down Russian forces, blitz through poorly prepared defensive positions and occupy and hold a suitably small and defensive territory against a Russian counterattack then they might be able to convince the Russian government to cede it in a peace treaty. I couldn't see it happening otherwise though.

	31-01-2003 14:29									#47
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I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but Clancys take on them was just so extreme.

The action was good though.

BTW does the US military do anything wrong in Clancy books. hE seems to think they are almost infalliable

	31-01-2003 15:12									#48
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The day the Chinese industrial output outstrips that of Russia, it's the day China can win the conventional war.

	31-01-2003 15:36									#49
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger BTW does the US military do anything wrong in Clancy books. hE seems to think they are almost infalliable

Not almost, are. I mean, even luck is on their side in Red Storm Rising.

	31-01-2003 15:38									#50
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His views on trade are a little strange as are his views on the quality of non american goods

	31-01-2003 15:40									#51
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Larry Bond is a better writer anyway.

	31-01-2003 16:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger His views on trade are a little strange as are his views on the quality of non american goods

Amen! He's a cross between a protectionist commie and a tradewar nazi.

	31-01-2003 18:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yup. Both countries realise that a war between them with the US looming is A Stupid Idea.

You don't think that both governments would be more worried about lost trade than about America?

Never underestimate the pacifying power of commerce!

You can make people stand up for a political entity if they have nothing left to lose... but if (as in the case of both China and Russia) they've seen the value of life go up exponentially in the past few decades, then sending them off into the great conflagration is simply not an option.

Peasants will stand up and revolt if it means a better life for their children. Businessmen in cities will not because they have everything to lose.

	31-01-2003 21:06									#54
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Trade is pretty big with the US right now, but both have a very big internal market (at least potentially) so neither would become an export-oriented economy the way Japan or South Korea is.