30-01-2003 21:25									#1
	Russa Vs China: Who would win? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Obviously Russia is significantly weaker than during the Soviet Union, and even then they lost to Finland. China, in the meantime, has boosted its military dramatically over the last few decades. Plus, China's got everything that Russia has and more.


I think the answer is obvious, and is also the reason that Russia was so eager to sign a treaty with China. China would whoop their asses without breaking a sweat.

Discuss.

	30-01-2003 21:29									#2
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Russia, cause 6000+ nukes on MRV missiles beat 400 on single warhead ICBM's and IRBM every day of the week.

So when do you get banned DaShi?

	30-01-2003 21:30									#3
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how many people live in russia? 150 mill? china has got 10 times that...

I don't know, but maybe Russia has better weapons

btw, they didn't lose to Finland.

	30-01-2003 21:30									#4
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Not soon enough, it seems.

I doubt that it would be nuclear. MAD and all that.

	30-01-2003 21:32									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf how many people live in russia? 150 mill? china has got 10 times that... I don't know, but maybe Russia has better weapons btw, they didn't lose to Finland.

China's pop will finally be an advantage here. Supposing they can handle the climate.

	30-01-2003 21:36									#6
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*sigh* no one reads Clancy anymore...

	30-01-2003 21:53									#7
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Saras, its just that he's gotten sooo political. The book is sooo long, the type sooo small. Then there was the bit about the golden fleece, that was sooo absurd. Sooo I didn't finish it and watched the sci fi channel instead.

Sooo who did Clancy have as the winner?

	30-01-2003 21:57									#8
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Russia (with some help from us). But it wasn't a very good book.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 21:58									#9
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China.

	30-01-2003 22:01									#10
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Arrian, the book sucked until action started. I vividly imagined sitting it out in the border bunker under arty barrage when the Chinese were crossing the river.

	30-01-2003 22:05									#11
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What page should I start on?

	30-01-2003 22:06									#12
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When it comes down to it the Chinese have manpower and... little else. The Russians wouldn't ever invade the Chinese therefor the only way a war would occur is if the Chinese invade the CIS. In which case the Russians would probably attempt to use their nuclear arsonal to even the odds.

	30-01-2003 22:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Saras *sigh* no one reads Clancy anymore...

Has he been good once?

	31-01-2003 00:04									#14
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Yeah, where does the action really kick in for "The Bear and the Dragon" by Clancy? It's sitting on my bookshelf, mostly unread ... and that's a rarity for me w/Tom Clancy books. Then again, "Red Rabbit" looks like sh*t, too. Who the hell wants to read a preequel book set in the 1980s ... you know dang well that the main character isn't gonna die. Sheesh.

Anyway ... if the war didn't go nuclear, I'd bet on China being able to grab a chunk of Russian territory.

Gatekeeper

	31-01-2003 00:15									#15
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See flag.

But seriously, in a nuclear age, the chances of anyone "winning" is slim to none.

	31-01-2003 00:29									#16
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What this make me wonder more than anything else is unless your going to project power what is the purpose of a gigantic conventional military force. (And if your going to attempt to project power you have more modern smaller forces to project that power with an emphasis on transportability)

The US shooses to use it military might as the world policeman (right or wrong a point for anotherof the billion threads here). Aside from that use large land standing military forces are next to useless in light of the MAD response.

I find it implausible to think that either Russia or China are going to in any time in the near future embark on wars of conquest between themselves or their neighbors. Therefore the massive Chinese buildup can only be described as folly as the cost of these forces must be a farily goodish portion of the Chinese GDP with no discernible payback.

Conversely the Russian's made the correct move and perhaps it is the one saving grace in their otherwise troubled economy.

	31-01-2003 00:37									#17
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The cockraaches would win.

	31-01-2003 01:12									#18
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the United States

we always win

	31-01-2003 01:23									#19
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Nobody wins. A total war between China and Russia will turn most of Eurasia into a radioactive wasteland.

	31-01-2003 01:26									#20
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china, only if they conscript every person in their country to fight for them.

a billion men with pitchforks charging the enemy. you can only shoot so many

	31-01-2003 01:28									#21
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Russia, better arms, better fire power, better weaponry etc. Chinas has 10 times more people, but it does not matter if that people will not have arms to fight (that is why doctrine of police forces says that in battle with demonstrators there should be a ratio 10:1

	31-01-2003 01:30									#22
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The United States would win. It'd be great for us if the Russians and Chinese annihilated each other...

	31-01-2003 03:46									#23
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Russia has clearly superior weapons. The gap between the two navies is immense, and the tank that makes up the majority of the Chinese mechanized force is based on a Russian tank, the T-72, only it's not as good. The Russians have already scrapped the T-72 for the superior T-90. However, most of Russia's firepower and production power are in the West, not near the border. So in a conventional war I'd have to say that China would be able to take quite a lot of land - maybe getting as far as Lake Bykal. However, there's really nothing there anyway, and they'd run into supply problems. So a conventional war would end in China grabbing one good port (Vladivostok) and a whole lot of tundra.

However, I think that pretty early on Russia would threaten China with its nuclear arsenal, and then China would retreat. (There's no way that China will win a nuclear war.)

	31-01-2003 04:05									#24
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Mongolia would win with a sneak attack

	31-01-2003 04:10									#25
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Those devious Mongolians...

	31-01-2003 04:12									#26
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I'd think China would win a non-nuclear war. While Russia does have spme very advanced weapons, the Russian military is in a state of disrepair right now, extremely low morale, people not made, officers being forced to work as taxi drivers at night for more income, soldiers beating each other up...

	31-01-2003 04:23									#27
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quote: a billion men with pitchforks charging the enemy. you can only shoot so many.

Uberkrux:

What about tactical nukes?

	31-01-2003 04:33									#28
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Actually, a couple of divisions of rocket artillery will deal quite sever punishment to any such "army".

	31-01-2003 08:00									#29
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I believe that Russian vodka just barely has the edge in lethality over "er guo tou" and "mao tai" combined. However I hear that China is working on a secret type of stealth liquor that will have no discernible effect while approaching, such that you only realize you've been hit after you bomb out.

	31-01-2003 08:07									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Yeah, where does the action really kick in for "The Bear and the Dragon" by Clancy?

I read bits of that. It was the first time I'd ever touched a Clancy book.

I wasn't impressed and chances are slim that I'll pick up another.

quote: Anyway ... if the war didn't go nuclear, I'd bet on China being able to grab a chunk of Russian territory.

This reminds me of the Carl Sagan book, "Contact" (later made into a mediocre movie). In it there's a bit where the American scientists are placing bets on who would win in a USSR/PRC standoff. They said if China moved all its able bodied men to the borders, Russia couldn't possibly hold them off.

Then a scientist said if China did that, then the Chinese birthrate would drop to zero and within a generation the crisis would be over.

I don't see China and Russia clashing anytime soon. There has been very little sabre-rattling from the Chinese government about their Russian neighbor ever since the fall of the Soviet regime. Right now the Russians are known for their visiting businessmen and their extreme aptitude for making money quickly.