30-01-2003 22:00									#1
	Hendrick's Bane Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The excellant Morgan's Builder game offered by Hendrick has awakened an interest in me to defend Zak's honor. Therefore, by way of experimentation and not competition, I have taken his game and made a scenario from it named Hendrick's Bane.

I have switched the starting positions of Morgan and Zak and will play the University from Hendrick's position to see if I can establish how the two factions stack up in a pure builder sense. Hendrick transcended in 2236 and I looked at the game closely and concluded that he played very well. I put my chances at being competitive with him at about 1 in 4.

Even if he proves to be the better player, I will need still more evidence that Morgan is the best pure builder.

Status Report: MY 2130

Pop 8, Techs 8, FM, 50% each with income of 12 and techs every 7 with IA in 3 turns.

7 bases with 2 pods on the move and 4 being produced.
1 bases has tanks, no other infrastructure built.
1 ogre, 1 mining laser, 1 probe, 1 scout, 1 scout chopper, 2 artifacts.

My first 3 formers are in production. I went for SOTHB for the free tech and because I had no intention of building crawlers right away. I will of course switch all production to formers and crawlers when the last CPs roll off and begin to hunt projects.

Using the Sikander base layout with some minor mods due to terrain.

Long term strategy: 24 core bases fully developed, SSC and energy park. Hoping to be able to induce GA pop boom and get some commerce income. Pray for science to trump the capitalist.

jt

	31-01-2003 01:14									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Status Report: MY 2150

Pop 25, Techs 16, Demo/FM/Wealth, 50% each with income of 46 and techs every 8 with EE(tree farms) in 7 turns.

4 commerce!

13 bases and 1 pod being produced.
1 bases has tanks, no other infrastructure built.
1 ogre, 1 mining laser, 1 probe, 1 scout, 1 scout chopper, 3 artifacts, 1 unity rover, 9 formers and 8 crawlers

Special Projects: HGP

Producing crawlers at 12 bases. Had a terrible time with bdrones till I got Demo and the HGP built. Lal showed up one turn before the both of us was to build the HGP. He offered a war pact against the Spartans which I accepted. This was an easy decision as Lal is the closest AI, the second strongest and I knew the Spartans remote location from salvage of the Unity wreckage. The pact led to acquistion of 3 techs by trade.

Next turn after I beat Lal to the HGP (upgrade 3 crawlers to trance for 50ec each to net 135 minerals on the turn before) instead of switching production to the VW or PTS, both of which he could have done from tech I gave him, Lal instead switched off to a rover. Gotta love the AI.

Miriam just started the WP. No other contacts.

jt

Edit to correct population total.

Last edited by Capt Dizle on 01-02-2003 at 09:31

	31-01-2003 01:58									#3
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Good luck! Oh and could you possibly attach some saves?

Last edited by Hendrik on 31-01-2003 at 02:15

	31-01-2003 02:29									#4
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I'll try!

Edit: In comparing my start with Hendrick at 2152 it looks like I am fighting an uphill battle. Morg has built more bases, more formers, more crawlers, has much more terraforming done. Much more infrastructure. Morg has two mined mineral rocky specials hooked up and as a result two high mineral bases, 23 and 15 iirc, wheras my best bases are struggling at 8 or so. I only got one of those precious rocky specials and have not set it up yet.

Doesn't look good. The only lead I have is in tech and its not significant at this point.

Still, I don't have to build net nodes nor will I have to struggle with the hab limits. Slim chance perhaps if Hendrick's play slipped somewhere.

I hate corporate pigs.

Last edited by Capt Dizle on 31-01-2003 at 22:24

	31-01-2003 05:05									#5
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I'd love to get a copy of this scenario too. I'm about to restart my builder game from sikander's save (I made too many mistakes in the mid-game that I want to fix), and I wouldn't mind trying this either, to compare playstyles. I'd be most interested to know which opening beeline ends up being better, IA or SotHB.

	31-01-2003 07:07									#6
	Let us try this again........ Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Attachment: beer run, 2150.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	31-01-2003 07:08									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

and again...

Attachment: hendrick's bane, 2101.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	31-01-2003 07:10									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

and again...cause I don't know how to attach more than one file per post.

Attachment: beer run, 2130.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	31-01-2003 07:11									#9
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This is the starting save for Archaic.

Attachment: beer run, 2101.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	31-01-2003 07:17									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic I'd love to get a copy of this scenario too. I'm about to restart my builder game from sikander's save (I made too many mistakes in the mid-game that I want to fix), and I wouldn't mind trying this either, to compare playstyles. I'd be most interested to know which opening beeline ends up being better, IA or SotHB.

In experimenting with Uni starts on various maps I have been able to get IA as early as 2110. But what are you going to do with it? You have only two bases and no money to switch SE.

You can get to IA pretty fast with Morgan. Ogie, I think posted the beeline some time ago.

The following is a copy from that thread:

A little bit more on Beeline strategies when considering directed research. Although this is not considered new information by any stretch of the imagination, it does bear repeating. Beelines as established take this into consideration, but for those of you like me who play without a guide sitting in front of you.

Consider Industrial Auto as your targeted tech.

The game will not allow you to choose successive techs of the same type (most of the time at least) and as a result you must alternate between tech types in order to beeline as quickly as possible.

For the IA example above (the shortest beeline then becomes)

Prereqs are:
1st tech to discover Industrial Base -(B1 Prereq for Industrial Econ B2)

Tech avaialable to choose then becomes (as B2 is not shown)

2nd tech Net Nodes - D1 prereq for Planetary Networks D2

3rd tech Industrial Econ (Planetary Networks not available) - B2

4th tech Planetary networks - D2

5th tech Industrial Automation - B3

Notice the pattern B1,D1,B2,D2,B3. You don't see a B1,B2 or a B2,B3 combination as the game doesn't offer the successive build tech normally as an option.

If anyone has any info to the contrary I would be most interested, but all my play experience indicates this is the case. As a result, the beeline to IA then for a few select factions should be:

Gaians: Start tech Centauri Ecology E1
Beeline to IA is as above namely B1 (industrial base),D1(net nodes),B2(industrial econ),D2(planetary networks),B3 (IA)

Lal: start tech is Biogenetics
Same as above

Morgan & Domai: Start tech is Industrial Base
1st -Beeline is d1 net node
2nd - B2 Industrial Econs
3rd - D2 planetary networks
4th - B3 IA

Data Angels - Start tech is net nodes and planetary networks
1st tech Beelines is B1 Industrial Base
2nd Any other tech other than build (suggest Centauri Ecology E1)
3rd tech B2 - Industrial Econ
4th tech (any other tech other than Build)
5th tech B3 IA

Uop - Start tech is Net nodes
Free tech is Industrial Base
1st tech is B2 Industrial Econ
2nd tech is D2 Planetary Networks
3rd tech is B3 IA.

Note: For the first 3 or so tech UoP researchs at rates of 3-4 turns/tech so in doing the above UoP can get to IA by no later than 2113.

You don't necessarily need to have a beeline mapping out the techs in front of you just remember to plan your discoveries of prereqs accordingly such that the last prereq discovered is not of the same type as your desired target tech else you'll be delayed by having to discover another tech before your allowed to have the target tech as a valid choice

_______________

If the above is wrong blame Ogie or whoever I stole it from.

jt

	31-01-2003 08:11									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

It is wrong and doesn't always hold true but for the most part it does most of the time.

So blame me or sue me your choice.

	31-01-2003 10:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick In experimenting with Uni starts on various maps I have been able to get IA as early as 2110. But what are you going to do with it? You have only two bases and no money to switch SE.

Hope for Pod Pops I suppose. I'd rather have the tech just in case and then try and rush for SotHB (Which the Uni still has a decent chance of picking up after an IA beeline) then to have to wait.

	31-01-2003 17:54									#13
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Hey jimmytrick, is that theory for tech advance choice actually proven? I know a lot of people who would like to get a handle on how the computer selects choices for the player...

Best of luck with Hendrik's Bane!

	31-01-2003 20:42									#14
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jt:

There's a problem with beer run 2101 (to be played as Morgan) - you didn't reset all techs in the Hendrick's Bane scenario when you changed from Uni to Morgan, so now Morgan can go Planned, and as well starts off with the free tech

G.

	31-01-2003 21:16									#15
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Hmm - what am I havering about?

The faction is still the Uni, but the starting units are homed to Morgan Industries (another way of getting a free scout?) That's what threw me

G.

	31-01-2003 22:06									#16
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googs,

I don't see that it makes much difference as its designed to be played as a University game. At least not insofar as to making me start over. If you would like to correct my error and post it it would be great.

I am not very experienced with the editor. I will claim credit for remembering to force the difficulty level to avoid the oh, its only 24 credits to switch SE problem.

Perhaps however you feel that the problem is so significant as to invalidate my effort please explain more.

One thing pointing to a restart is that by failing to reset the tech I created a situation in which the University has no choice of tech. The free tech was Planetary Networks. I didn't mind this so I just played on without realizing how it would affect the other factions. I have invested too much time in the game to turn back really.

jt

	31-01-2003 22:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Hmm - what am I havering about? The faction is still the Uni, but the starting units are homed to Morgan Industries (another way of getting a free scout?) That's what threw me G.

shiver me timbers, yer right! me scout tis indeed supported by Morgan! LMAO. I still ain't starting over....

	31-01-2003 22:26									#18
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick shiver me timbers, yer right! me scout tis indeed supported by Morgan! LMAO. I still ain't starting over....

Edit: to point to my edit in my third post ^

	31-01-2003 22:44									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: originally posted by jimmytrick I hate corporate pigs.

he he he
The UofP is a great faction, don't get me wrong, but they cannot equal the sheer moolah producing power of Morgan as a pure builder.

Zack has to choose between utilizing technology now and expanding... rapid tech too early can't be utilized effectively without slowing down your growth later in the game (IE not enough bases). Archaic was ahead of me in energy and labs production by year 75, but by year 92 we were about tied in labs and energy production.

In one MP game I started on a small island away from the other players and was able to focus on really intensive infrastructure in those bases, and I had enough energy to corner the market by 2175. I was so far away from everyone else that I had airpower by the time their navy shows up in force... Morgan can be great for energy market wins like that, his commerce rating is godly in FM/wealth

	31-01-2003 23:35									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Its not over till the fat lady sings and I haven't see Miriam yet pal.

	01-02-2003 09:53									#21
	Remove this text

One of the problems at this stage of the game is fear, fear that you won't get the secret projects you must have. There is a great temptation to overproduce crawlers or stockpile energy so that you can quickly grab the projects.

This often leads to failure to build the infrastructure that you need later. The result can be a stunted position from which it takes many turns to rebound.

I was therefore very tempted to build the Empath Guild as my second project so that I could see the progress of the other factions as they begin the SP building phase. This might allow me to pace my project building to stay just ahead of the AI. Alas, I did not have the stones to do it in the end. Several factions were building the WP; I felt I had to get it safely out of the way. It was built in 2160.

This brought good news and bad news. As a result of the build two AI factions switched off SP building, which is a good thing to see. The bad news is that Lal switched to the Planetary Transit System and with his reduced cost will be there in 23 turns. That's bad because he is essentially prebuilding the EG or ME in the event I build PTS. He can just switch off. Or go to the VW because I gave him the tech!

The PTS always seems to butcher my pace. I hate that project with a vengeance but I feel that I am going to try to get it and the other three must have projects. The PTS is the only one of the group that is not required so I may be about to blunder.

During this short ten-turn segment I concentrated, playing hard, trying to use wise rush buys on crawlers and formers to narrow the gap with Hendrick. I am foresting like mad. I am not altogether disappointed with the result but as I look up the hill Morgan is still ahead.

Getting the energy restrictions lifted was a benchmark moment. Also had an earthquake in 2158 that messed up a few high nutrient future base sites. And Lal has built a stupid sea base to the southeast that I wish he hadn't.

Status Report: MY 2160 of the Beer Run

15 Bases
28 Population
7 Commerce
2 Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm and Human Genome
17 Technologies discovered
SE: Demo/Free Market/Wealth
Allocation: 50-0-50

Infrastructure:
4 Tanks
15 Nodes

Research Status:
Cost 787
Acquired 471
Per Turn 129.6
Discoveries in 7 with Centauri Med in 3.

Income 61
Expenses 0
Net +61 per turn

Units:
Formers 25
Scouts 1
Colony Pods 0
Transport Foils 1
Supply Crawlers 22
Probe Teams 1
Artifacts 3
Unity Rover 1
Scout Chopper 1
Ogre 1
Mining Laser 1

For comparison here are the Morgan/Hendrick stats at the same year.


Status Report: MY 2160 of Morgan Builder

20 Bases
30 Population
4 Commerce
2 Secret Projects: Weather Paradigm and Human Genome (I think)
14 Technologies discovered
SE: Free Market/Wealth
Allocation: 50-0-50

Infrastructure:
13 Tanks
3 Commons
4 Nodes

Research Status:
Cost 647
Acquired 44
Per Turn 108
Discoveries in 6 with Ecological Engineering in 6.

Income 81
Expenses 13
Net +68 per turn

Units:
Formers 26
Scouts 2
Synth Sentinel 1
Colony Pods 2
Transport Foils 0
Supply Crawlers 15
Probe Teams 0
Artifacts 3
Unity Rover 1

I am sure that Hendrick would have explored the wreckage by this point and assume that he cashed in the units for minerals. Perhaps not.

*edit to include income info

Last edited by Capt Dizle on 01-02-2003 at 10:31

	02-02-2003 06:19									#22
	Status Update MY 2171 Full PM-box? Change here!

Morgan Builder	Mission Year 2171	University beer run
Hendrick	Player	jimmytrick
24	Bases	19
71	Population	55
7	Commerce Rate	5
5	Commerce Income	8
Total: 4 Human Genome Project, Weather Paradigm, Planetary Energy Grid, Planetary Transit System	Secret Projects	Total : 5 Human Genome Project, Merchant Exchange, Planetary Transit System, Virtual World , Weather Paradigm
16	Technologies Discovered	19
819	Research Cost	891
53	Accumulated Research	759
174	Labs per Turn	211.2
5 turns	Tech Rate	5 turns
Secrets of the Human Brain in 3 turns	Tech Goal	Neural Grafting in 1 turn
Free Market/Wealth	Social Engineering	Demo/Free Market/Wealth
101	Energy	27
50-0-50	Energy Allocation	50-0-50
188	Gross Income	108
-31	Maintenance	-3
157	Net Income	105
3 Children's Crèche, 21 Recycling Tanks, 11 Recreation Commons, 10 Network Nodes	Infrastructure	13 Recycling Tanks, 19 Network Nodes, 1 Tree Farm
3 Scouts, 1 Unity Rover, 1 Synthmetal Sentinel	Land Units	2 Battle Ogres, 1 Mining Laser,  1 Unity Rover, 2 Scouts, 1 Trance Synthmetal Garrison, 1 Synthmetal Garrison
--	Naval Units	--
--	Air Units	1 Scout Chopper
35 Formers, 30 Supply Crawlers, 3 Alien Artifacts, 1 Colony Pod	Non Combat Units	33 Formers, 29 Crawlers, 3 Probe Teams, 5 Alien Artifacts, 2 Transport Foils, 1 Sea Former
74	Total Units	82
Pact: None Treaty: Lal Truce: Santiago Vendetta: None	Politics	Pact: Lal Treaty: None Truce: None Vendetta: Yang & Santiago

Last edited by Capt Dizle on 02-02-2003 at 11:04

	02-02-2003 10:08									#23
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Can someone tell me how to eliminate that space at the top of my stupid table?

	02-02-2003 10:26									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

During the 2160-71 time period I concentrated on getting the secret projects I needed in place. Unfortunately I completely blundered by forgeting the PEG. Oh well. Its still available so I'll research in that direction. I tend to think in terms of SMAC not SMACX when picking techs.

Morgan is still well ahead on bases, pop, energy production and base facilities.

A Hive scout showed up on the flats and I told Yang to bugger off when he attempted to extort tech from me. This worked out in one sense, my original probe team was "beamed over" by a pod to a location near one of Yang's bases and I stole Doc:Loyalty.

Otherwise the only event of note was the appearance of a Spartan transport with a scout patrol that is currently hovering off my coast. I can only wonder what else is headed my way.

I need to put in the infrastructure to begin the vertical ascent but it's going to take some time. The only advantage I can see that might help me pull even with Hendrick is the hab limits.

I will build the Empath Guild in 2172. Perhaps I can gain some advantage from that. Terraforming is going well, starting some boreholes.

Playing as hard as I can here, advice from University fans would be more than welcome. The next comparison will be with Hendrick's 2181 save.

jt


ps. I did decide to build the ME in a coastal base rather than in the headquarters base. I am looking to set up the SSC there so that I can trawl in energy as well as harvest an energy park. It is also located nearer the flats.

Hendrick I hope you stumbled somewhere.

	02-02-2003 10:39									#25
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If you want to eliminate the space, just eliminate every single space between your tags in the HTML. The code will look absolutly ugly, but it'll work properly. vB finds it hard to wrap itself around the concept of non-breaking spaces.

EDIT: The best advice I could give without yet having been able to play from the save would be to ignore the ME initially. EG costs the same, and it's certainly not hard to get the tech necessary for it by the time you start to crank out the early game projects. ME only really comes into its own if you're working all those squares, and really, you'll get better profits by getting commerce coming in than from the +1 per tile from the ME, especially in the late game when you're only working 2 tiles a base anyway.

Last edited by Archaic on 02-02-2003 at 10:45

	02-02-2003 11:20									#26
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Nice work JT, the VW is pretty amazing for the university... you can get by without even having to build recreation commons in the early years! 140 mineral's worth of maintenence free facilities per new base isn't bad at all...

	02-02-2003 11:33									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic ...ME only really comes into its own if you're working all those squares, and really, you'll get better profits by getting commerce coming in than from the +1 per tile from the ME, especially in the late game when you're only working 2 tiles a base anyway.

(emphasis added)


This is erroneous. ME benefit applies to every energy crawler or trawler working from the ME base. Assuming your late game SE provides +2 ECONOMY, the ME increases raw energy yield from all trawlers by about 25%. (About, because the percentage increase for trawled energy special tiles is less.) Depending on the amount and type of land energy crawling you're doing, the ME benefit can range from 20% - 30% of all crawled energy. Presuming this challlenge is going to involve the establishment of a SSC with beaucoup crawled and trawled energy, the ME benefit in the late game, when research costs are so great, is too significant to ignore.

	02-02-2003 13:44									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ah, a good point. I almost never establish a true SSC, though I'd of course try and pile all the SSC projects on top of each other if possible.

	02-02-2003 19:31									#29
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Archaic, just for clarification, are you saying I have to compress all the html including the table tags themselves? I still can't correct that glitch and I have eliminated all spaces except those within the table.

	02-02-2003 21:26									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes, that's exactly what you've got to do. All the HTML code needs to be on one "line". Any non-breaking spaces (The linebreaks are your main problem) will screw it up. You might want to get rid of everything besides the code inside the table tag too.