31-01-2003 06:59									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is that effect, especially at the start...

In the early and midgame, if the NOs oppose a bill, it wont happen, if they support it it will.

Often however, they abstain (they are apathetic after all)...THEN it really matters what the various races vote)

Late game, The NO voting block is no longer huge compared to yours, and you can eventually surpass them.


You cant really convince the NO to support or to not support something....they arent affected by the normal diplomacy that others work with, they are so far above you. They will pretty much just ignore whatever you do, unless you specifically piss them off.

	31-01-2003 07:41									#32
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by To_Serve_Man I was wondering, can you, as the player, propose bills to the Orion Senate?

Yes. They can range from condeming/praising an empire to lifting the NBC ban or forming a senate wide research team.

	31-01-2003 07:52									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Rantz has been lurking around here a lot lately... I'd like to hear comments from him regarding the preview. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

	31-01-2003 07:56									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am sorry I cant say anything nice about these reviews. They have got to be the most painfull crap I have ever read. These reviews are turning people away from the game and making them gouge out thier eyes so they dont read another word.

Dan Q's english and grammer are so damn horrible, and the fact that hey says the stupidest things in the most painfully long winded way possible makes me want to buy hooked a phonics and send it to him and then kill myself.

Possibility

	31-01-2003 08:19									#35
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Possibility I am sorry I cant say anything nice about these reviews. They have got to be the most painfull crap I have ever read. These reviews are turning people away from the game and making them gouge out thier eyes so they dont read another word. Dan Q's english and grammer are so damn horrible, and the fact that hey says the stupidest things in the most painfully long winded way possible makes me want to buy hooked a phonics and send it to him and then kill myself. Possibility

Maybe you should just buy a good spellchecker and keep it for yourself.

	31-01-2003 09:15									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Did I just stumble into English class or what?

	31-01-2003 10:08									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Did I just stumble into English class or what?

If you did you should send Dan your location

	31-01-2003 12:49									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Blah blah blah, lets all talk about style and ignore comment. If style was important, then AquaNox was the greatest game ever

Thanks again Dan, and don't let the nay-sayers get to you. You are developing into a cult icon, don't forget that And I thought the first paragraph was quite funny, in a surreal kind of way. So there. The big question now is which comes first, the game or part 6 ?

-Jam

	31-01-2003 13:26									#39
	Put an end to popups!

[EDIT: Never mind.]

Last edited by darcy on 31-01-2003 at 16:20

	31-01-2003 14:58									#40
	Tired of ads?

One Question comes to my mind after reading this preview: what is the effect of the praise vote?

Besides nice Preview. I think that most people forgot that this isn't a review. In my opinion a preview should cover all game aspects and compare them to the predecessors(mild complaint). Only a small part (part 6) should cover the gameplay itself( that's what reviews are for).

	31-01-2003 16:06									#41
	Tired of ads?

Dan - thanks for that... this preview was fine.

It surely does not deserve getting bashed, on the contrary, but there is so little visible happening on MoO3 at this moment, apart from your Thursday review and the AAR which the BT's make for us that you get the beating.

carry on, we wait for next Thursday

	31-01-2003 19:15									#42
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Good preview.

Moving the hard detail to an appendix and keeping the main content focused on the GAME was a good decision.

Take the critisism with a grain of salt, its just a little bit of carry over (since bashing the previews were a tradition). Your preview part 4 does not deserve critisism.

I'm glad that you took our complaints into consideration.

	31-01-2003 21:09									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some of you guys are harsh. Ouch. But then I am a programmer and used to reading requirements documentation so maybe I am closer to the audience for this review.

That said, I am drooling with anticipation. I liked the previous MOOs better than the CIVs and MOO3 seems ready to continue that trend.

	31-01-2003 21:20									#44
	Tired of ads?

Overall, it was far better than the other parts. Interesting read (if a little longwinded). I think one of the main problems, is that MOO3 fans are quite frequently scientist/engineer types, and as such they prefer short, concise, technical documents (and previews) to longwinded explainations in flowery english - i imagine the Civ crowd is a lot more humanitarian (historians, geographers etc) and so will prefer the longwinded style... just a thought from an engineer.

	31-01-2003 23:34									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Some of you guys are harsh. Ouch. But then I am a programmer and used to reading requirements documentation so maybe I am closer to the audience for this review.

I have read plenty of technical specifications. Part 2 & 3 were ****.

	01-02-2003 00:15									#46
	Hope it's not too late... Suffering from ads?

Unfortunately, the screnshots show that a couple of minor (but highly annoying) textual errors seem to have remained in the game. The biggest or most noticeable is in the voting screens. Typically, a vote in favor is rendered as "yea" (as opposed to "nay"), but the screens all show it as "yay," which to me looks like cheering.

Also, in the diplomacy screen showing the Eoladi, the word "snivels" should be "sniveling," at least based on context.

Typos and grammar errors are unfortunate, and a game that has been this long in the making ought to have had an editor go through it with a fine tooth comb to avoid glitches of this nature that, while minor compared to crashes and gameplay bugs, can nonetheless be serious impediments to enjoyment.

	01-02-2003 01:13									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Possibility These reviews are turning people away from the game and making them gouge out thier eyes so they dont read another word.

Funny; this preview had the opposite effect for me. I was pretty sure I'd be giving MOO3 a pass, but now I'm thinking it will end up on my hard drive after all...

and I decided not to gouge out my eyes. Thanks Dan!

	01-02-2003 01:45									#48
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Stuie Funny; this preview had the opposite effect for me. I was pretty sure I'd be giving MOO3 a pass.

That was after you read parts 1-3 of the preview, right?

	01-02-2003 01:54									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't think people are being too harsh, at least not on this thread. Most people are being reasonably positive here, yes we are still talking about bad writing style, but that's because some bad writing style exists. It's called honesty and constructive criticism. Most of us agree that this review shows a dramatic improvement over the last one.

On the main forums people are being much more harsh, but that's to be expected.. The first previews were so bad, and Dan and Mark have been so dismissive of criticism, that they partialy have themselves to blame for this.

If anything I think we have the people who were harsh on previous previews that we have to thank for Dan's improvement. Well I guess Dan himself should take some credit too .

	01-02-2003 01:57									#50
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: I think one of the main problems, is that MOO3 fans are quite frequently scientist/engineer types, and as such they prefer short, concise, technical documents (and previews) to longwinded explainations in flowery english - i imagine the Civ crowd is a lot more humanitarian (historians, geographers etc) and so will prefer the longwinded style... just a thought from an engineer.

A thought from an engineer? Well, definitely not a thought from a writer or historian. Those who traffic in words to make a living have HIGHER, not lower, standards for writing quality.

It's possible to be critical without being callous. I agree some of the criticism of Dan's writing is over the top. The writing, however, is... not at a high level.

Wordiness is not about how many words are used, nor how big the words are. It's about how many are wasted, just taking up space.

The first principle of a writer is to learn to cut. You cut, then you cut some more, then more. The more you cut, the better the writing. Adjectives are the enemy, they weaken nouns. Adverbs and prepositional phrases are the enemy, they weaken verbs. Verbs are the only strong words. Verbs convey power. Nouns are only there to show who or what is performing the action described by the verb. All the other words combined only add detail. Each detail added distracts from the core message, though. Finding a healthy mix of description and power is an art form. There is a lot more to writing than putting letters together to form words and assembling words into sentences. Writing is about communication. You have ideas, you use words to convey them. Those who lose sight of the ideas to focus too much on the words end up saying a whole lot of nothing.

Dan did that at some points in his previews. I write for a living. Dan's Part Three was so wordy I decided not to finish reading it. It was truly painful at points, but it's not his English at fault. Writing supercedes language. Wordiness is mentally exhausting in any language.

Someone suggested that Dan was trying to fill six pages with only two pages of information. I bet that's not the case at all. Dan played the game, he has mountains of information and experience on hand that we're all interested in learning about. Many of those upset with him are wishing he had used the space he wasted for conveying more of that information. I hope he comes to realize that less is more. Drop the cutesy gimmicks and flowery prose designed to impress, because it's not impressive. Effective communication is impressive. Opening a window to all of us out here, who are dying to have a glimpse into something he got to experience, is impressive. He did a better job of prioritizing the ideas in Part Four, so perhaps he is learning as he goes.

Writing quality has nothing to do with intent. You don't get points for "meaning well". Make every word count, that's the secret.


- Sirian

	01-02-2003 02:35									#51
	Re: Hope it's not too late... Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by bloodrain Typos and grammar errors are unfortunate, and a game that has been this long in the making ought to have had an editor go through it with a fine tooth comb to avoid glitches of this nature that, while minor compared to crashes and gameplay bugs, can nonetheless be serious impediments to enjoyment.

...and they've got to be super easy to fix when compared to a code problem.

	01-02-2003 02:51									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Gucky
One Question comes to my mind after reading this preview: what is the effect of the praise vote?
[QUOTE]

The heads of Rantz and Chantz will enlarge with each praise until they explode, covering all of Quicksilver with a gooey green substance.


Much better preview, makes me want to see the screw-up that ended up in war.

	01-02-2003 03:21									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Gucky One Question comes to my mind after reading this preview: what is the effect of the praise vote?

My guess would be that a passed praise bill would raise relations of all sentate members with the praised empire.

	01-02-2003 03:35									#54
	Re: Hope it's not too late... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by bloodrain Typos and grammar errors are unfortunate, and a game that has been this long in the making ought to have had an editor go through it with a fine tooth comb to avoid glitches of this nature that, while minor compared to crashes and gameplay bugs, can nonetheless be serious impediments to enjoyment.

Remember, Dan doesn't have the final version so they typos may have been fixed by now. The betas have said they've fixed a ton of typos and grammar errors throughout the testing.

	01-02-2003 04:16									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Comment from Rantz:

" The sentences, replies, actions, etc done by ambassadors are creately dynamically. There isn't a "the Evon says you will rue the day" Instead, those sentences are created dynamically to try and reduce the amount of 'repeat' effect that diplomacy in strat games tends to have.

The 'terrible' structure is a result of the Universal Translator. The audio for each political animation is speaking in their own native tongue, with the UT giving you the deciphered version. To that effect we did want to have it not *quite* grammatically perfect."

Fair enough.

	01-02-2003 04:31									#56
	Inflate your Upload Space

... except for the fact the offending part ("snivels regretfully") is not part of the direct speech, so why should it be affected by imperfect translation?

	01-02-2003 06:48									#57
	Remove this text

Siran,

Some folks err on the other side of the style continuum. I found your staccato sentences to be so short and too the point that it was irritating (although I can’t disagree with your points, since they are true). There were also some comma use issues, but I’m sure you intended those for stylistic effect.

So, what is my point? It is not to criticize you – far from it. Your prose was very clear. I am suggesting that writing is difficult since each reader has different stylistic expectations, and success is determined by the viewpoints of these disparate readers. It is impossible to please them all.

Personally, I liked most of what Dan wrote (flaws and all). All of us can improve our writing, especially if it gets a critical review from a fresh pair of eyes. What Dan did took a lot of time, and I am appreciative that he gave us a sneak-peek at Moo3. Perhaps that makes me a cretin, but then – that’s my opinion.

	01-02-2003 07:44									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well you can't just dismiss people's opinions of Dan's writing as differences in style. There comes a certain point where you are writing in a way so far removed from the english language and sentence structures that it can no longer be simply looked at as "stylistically different".

I think it's extrememly important to be honest here. Some people may think it's callous to say harsh things about Dan's writing. I think it's far more callous to lie and say nice things about it. By doing that your taking the path of least resistance with no concern for Dan's well being, reputation and career. By being honest your actualy helping him understand where his limitations why and where he needs to improve. This is vitally important, especialy for a student.

And I don't mean to imply that everyone saying nice things about past reviews or about his writing style is lying. Sometimes there are just style differences.

	01-02-2003 08:22									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

MarkG posted two messages after this one on the IG forums as I write this. One was about "half naked pictures of britney spears" popups and the other was, well, the same company line about no criticism, but it's not a company, and maybe someone could help with the previews/reviews.

as the parent will/should never say to one child that it loves it more, a member of a team will/should never publicly criticise the work of another team member. so asking for my personal opinion(to which i have responded that there is no such thing for this issue) is at least ungentle


as for the rest: no i cant and wont respond to specific comments on this or that part of the preview except thanking them whenever possible(and i hope i'm not asked to go into "customer support" mode and thank every single person who posts something so that it is shown that we do accept feedback instead of ignoring it). i've not written it and therefore am not in the position to explain it properly

i'm though in the position to deal with the flames, only to show their idiocy. and that after "leting it be" for a month now

__________________
MarkG, Apolyton.net Admin

I don't really have a problem with all this brouhaha about the previews because DanQ only played, what?, 84 turns. For an addictive, "one more turn" game, why didn't he finish? And play again!? And again!!!

What's up with the lower case letters? I understand someone once said that CAPITAL LETTERS is shouting when the media is the computer (even though it's not... it's only typing), but I wonder if the lower case people are whispering. I mean... I mean, you've gotta consciously type "i" instead of "I," do you not?

More to the point, Mark, I believe you would have come across better the last few days on the IG forums had you not "dealt" with the flames and, instead, responded to specific comments regardless of whether you felt the need to thank them or not. Feedback is not just a matter of public relations and "shown" business; it is also accepting and learning.

	01-02-2003 09:12									#60
	Put an end to popups!

quote: I don't really have a problem with all this brouhaha about the previews because DanQ only played, what?, 84 turns. For an addictive, "one more turn" game, why didn't he finish? And play again!? And again!!!

84 turns? if this is true, the I think that is the real problem Its is probably why his preview was so sparse, and he had to stretch it, he simply didn't have enough time to discover much. So, I guess that means he didn't get a preview copy, someone just let him play it for half an hour or so. . . If thats what happened, then I think things are quite a bit clearer on the whole preview issue.