31-01-2003 05:22									#1
	BAE wins contract for new UK Carrier. "Ours are still bigger." Says Bush Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2706727.stm

quote: The Ministry of Defence order is made up of £2.9bn in building costs for two aircraft carriers, but billions of pounds will also be spent on maintaining the ships over their service lives. The two 950-foot-long, 60,000-tonne carriers will be the biggest British warships ever built.

Well, British Aerospace, with it's competitor "providing the main design" has won the contract for construction of two new large carriers for the British Navy. The two carriers will replace the three aging (though not quite as old as the Kitty Hawk) Invincible class Light Carriers.

Well Britons, what do you think? Is it a good idea to return large flattops, or is it just a pointless Boondoggle?

	31-01-2003 05:26									#2
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As you can see, the layout is quite different from both American, French, and "miscellaneous" large carriers. Looks a bit weird to me.

	31-01-2003 05:27									#3
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I don't know why the Royal navy would be doing that when they signed on for the JSF...

	31-01-2003 05:27									#4
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well if they are going to continue pleasing bush, they'll need a military that can actually do something

	31-01-2003 05:40									#5
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Boondoogle.

BAE (not called British Aerospace any more) have screwed up their last two jobs, and I can't see this doing much better. The actual design (quite cool, although why two towers are needed is beyond me) is from the rival bid from French company Thales. So the two rivals are now working together, great, more opportunity for overruns.

BAE employs a lot of people in Britain, so there's also political considerations. Britains biggest ship yard, in Ulster, could have built it in one piece, and Ulster could certainly use the work, but it's being built in sections across many little shipyards about mainland Britain.

It's also not nuclear powered.

	31-01-2003 05:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Boondoogle. .... It's also not nuclear powered.

I suspect the reason why it's not Nuclear powered falls under a couple reasons:

1) It was a matter of cost, which could have chopped up some more of the British Fleet.

2) It's really easy to hose up on a Nuclear Carrier if you don't know what you are doing. The first US CVN (the Enterprise) has *8* reactors in it. The French CVN is powered by Sub reactors, and it barely makes 30 kts, well below the "unofficial" official speed of 50 or so for Nimitz CVNs.

3) Not every country will allow a CVN in port. That's why the only carriers we stage out of Japan are older CVs.

	31-01-2003 05:54									#7
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quote: BAE employs a lot of people in Britain, so there's also political considerations. Britains biggest ship yard, in Ulster, could have built it in one piece, and Ulster could certainly use the work, but it's being built in sections across many little shipyards about mainland Britain.

Might well have hit the nail on the head here. This announcement supposedly secures 10000 jobs, and creates a further 2000. Big numbers...

	31-01-2003 05:55									#8
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Anyway... as for what I think... I'm indifferent. More interested in the new trains for Midland Mainline and Hull Trains, amongst others...

	31-01-2003 05:56									#9
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Unfortunately there aren't any pictures of them...

	31-01-2003 05:57									#10
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Why does it have two control towers?

	31-01-2003 05:58									#11
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In case one gets blown up?

	31-01-2003 06:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* In case one gets blown up?

But if the command staff is destroyed with one, what point is there in the second?

Perhaps a decoy?

	31-01-2003 06:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda I don't know why the Royal navy would be doing that when they signed on for the JSF...

IIRC the JSF project is supposed to include a naval variant.

Design looks quite a bit like the Kuznetsov (or whatever they've renamed it as this month) and the tonnage is rather similar too ...

	31-01-2003 06:01									#14
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I've no idea. Is the picture part of the bid submission or was it just an artist's impression anyway?

	31-01-2003 06:04									#15
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why does it have two control towers?

One reason I've heard is that each tower also doubles as a smokestack. I don't know why that would be nesscary though....

*E-I-F*

That's the Artist rendintion of the Thales design, the design that won, although BAE got the contract to build the damn thing.

Any takers on names?

	31-01-2003 06:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar I suspect the reason why it's not Nuclear powered falls under a couple reasons: 1) It was a matter of cost, which could have chopped up some more of the British Fleet. 2) It's really easy to hose up on a Nuclear Carrier if you don't know what you are doing. The first US CVN (the Enterprise) has *8* reactors in it. The French CVN is powered by Sub reactors, and it barely makes 30 kts, well below the "unofficial" official speed of 50 or so for Nimitz CVNs. 3) Not every country will allow a CVN in port. That's why the only carriers we stage out of Japan are older CVs.

1) Who cares? It's going to run overbudget anyway.
2) Well, we can learn from past errors, and see also above.
3) Doesn't seem to bother America.

	31-01-2003 06:41									#17
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Why does the UK need carriers?

	31-01-2003 06:43									#18
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Because otherwise the Unions will complain...?

quote: A multi-billion pound order to build the next generation of Britain's aircraft carriers has been dubbed "the greatest day for shipbuilding in the north-east of England". Union officials said the news that yards on the Tyne and Tees were to share in the BAE Systems-led contract to build two new carriers for the Royal Navy, would create thousands of jobs. The contract is expected to create about 2,000 jobs and secure a further 10,000 at UK shipyards. Kevin Curran, northern regional secretary of the General, Municipal and Boilermakers' Union (GMB) said: "This is fantastic news for the UK manufacturing. "It's is great news for working people in our country, and it's a wonderful boost for those of us who want to maintain a manufacturing industry in this country." Mr Curran, whose union represents shipyard workers on the Tyne and Tees, added: "Today is a proud and emotional day for me - and for all those who have worked so hard to revive the shipyards. "When I first came to the North East from London in 1997, I was told the Shipyards were a 'sunset' industry. "However, today we have proven that there can be a sustainable future for our shipyards and UK manufacturing if we have the leadership, the commitment and the political will to make it happen. "The Government deserves great credit for their support for the UK's manufacturing industry."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2709883.stm

	31-01-2003 06:44									#19
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Keynesian hole-diggers anyone?

	31-01-2003 06:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Because otherwise the Unions will complain...? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2709883.stm

Since the cost is 2.9 billion pounds, or approximately a quarter million pounds per job created/secured - why not negotiate with the unions for 100K per worker to sit at home? I'm sure that something could be worked out.

	31-01-2003 06:58									#21
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Even the CGI is crap. And that's the preferred design of carrier.

I reckon that they should have done something really innovative, like a catamaran carrier with two flight decks, or improve my favourite mad military machine, the carrier sub.

	31-01-2003 09:24									#22
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Well, if europe ever decides to try to do something on its own, a couple of those will apply the spank from above.

Thing is, you will only have 2...so which oceans get em and which don't?

	31-01-2003 09:31									#23
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If anyone could get close enough to even see the two towers on that carrier, it'd probably be dead anyways. So I doubt its a decoy. You'd think after spending 2.9bn pounds (however much that is in US$) they'd be able to make a better model of it. I could create a better picture in 2hrs with photoshop.

	31-01-2003 14:02									#24
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If the argies want the falklands back there gonna have to invade now

	31-01-2003 14:38									#25
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In terms of names, perhaps the Ark Royal for one of them?

	31-01-2003 14:39									#26
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I saw one of those Invincible class carries next to our ship- a helicpoter carrier called USS Guam.

I think they are really tempting fate by calling their ships invincible . You'd think they'd learn after calling the Titanic unsinkable.

	31-01-2003 14:41									#27
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I would think Hermes, Nelson or Rodney.

Possibly named after a royal( Hope not)

	31-01-2003 14:45									#28
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Also the Enterprise is not screwed up . I was stationed on that ship for 4 years.

Ahh who am I kidding. That design was really screwed up. We had some Inconel and some Stainless Steel steam generators. The RD system is/was a pile of crap.

Oh well it works- for the most part. And it is still a very fast carrier that doesn't need refueling except for jet fuel. Only because the age and past damage (it was run aground in San Fransisco bay doing some damage to #4 shaft) do they restrict the speed. The Enterprise has previously set speed records for carriers.

	31-01-2003 14:48									#29
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can you imagine a carrier race, that would be cool

	01-02-2003 08:03									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think they are really tempting fate by calling their ships invincible . You'd think they'd learn after calling the Titanic unsinkable.

Sort of like how Hitler got antsy about having a ship called 'Deutschland' in harms way?

IIRC, a previous 'Invincible' (battlecruiser) exploded with the loss of virtually all the crew at Jutland in 1916.