02-02-2003 19:29									#31
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quote: we are so insignificant because we have to long listened to the plans of the warmongers

Actually, the community is mostly composed by warmongers (as you can see WP x APP members) But every move until now had no war actions. All were heading for peace!

	02-02-2003 19:48									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn All were heading for peace!

thats what they always try to tell you

	03-02-2003 05:46									#34
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Well I've just returned from overseeing our nations first military victory and further expansion of our armed forces .

Just to restate my views:

If elected I promise to follow the will of the people on matters of war! I think that at the moment we should be looking to build up our forces in order to be able to defend our soon to be 3 cities, strike out at any barb threats and eventually invade another civ.

Lets face it. We've no chance or winning this game without war. There's hardly anywhere left to settle and we're surrounded. We must build up our strength and attack when the people deem the time is right! And when that time comes I believe I am the best person to lead our forces to victory!

	03-02-2003 05:49									#35
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well, perhaps you should mention it will only be 3 cities since you have been outnumbered in the gamechat. after a long discussion a couple of members from your party were convicted of the wiser arguments by members of the APP.

	03-02-2003 05:56									#36
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I've no problem with building the new city now. It's a democracy and the decision's been made.

Whatever people decide to do I shall carry out my job as best I can following their wishes.

	03-02-2003 08:05									#37
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Vote for Turambar:

I think that Immortal Wombats stance of not considering expansionistic war at this point... we have ranged units... to be deeply flawed.

Without continued empire expansion we put ourselves in a position of falling hopelessly behind technically, as well as being outnumbered on the battlefield.

Our options for expansion are reduced, turn after turn... other civs are founding new cities, and taking up 'dead space' at an alarming rate.

We have the capability to both defend and attack effectively at this point. We can use force concentration, using combined arms; a large stack of swords and bows, to attack a new and vulnerable enemy city. The enemy will not be able to react to this with enough speed.

With another city we not only weaken them, but strengthen ourselves... we grow more, produce more and research more. Isolated and peaceful growth means a quick death for Lemurians.

So, in conclusion "Vote for Turambar!!"

Its a vote for sanity.

MrBaggins

	03-02-2003 09:14									#38
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I won't consider going to war with another civ until we reach 4 or 5 cities when we have the power to replace the losses and defend our land. Peace now is the only alternative to the destruction of our cities and the enslavement of our children.

Vote APP, vote Immortal Wombat.

	03-02-2003 09:55									#39
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We shall certainly have the option of founding a 3rd city, but the borders are closing in fast. Founding a 4th and especially a 5th city seems very unlikely indeed, as the enemy closes in.

We shall be building a settler, as our option to settle disappears, as and when the borders encroach. This time will be better spent arming for war.

We should push back against the evil that seeks to engulf us.

Voting for a peace oriented Minister of Defence when certain war is on the horizon is madness.

Vote Turambar

	03-02-2003 14:36									#40
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quote: ... we have ranged units...

so do our neighbours

quote: Without continued empire expansion we put ourselves in a position of falling hopelessly behind technically, as well as being outnumbered on the battlefield.

thats why we should build as many cities as possible NOW. and about that technology... maybe mr.baggins believes, we would earn tech by invading cities? i don't like dissappointinh people, but here i have to.

quote: Our options for expansion are reduced, turn after turn... other civs are founding new cities, and taking up 'dead space' at an alarming rate.

they were, all neighbours we encountered so far have reached about 10 cities, so they won't expand any furter at the moment. well, of course unless we give them a good reason to invade us. oh, and btw, we already have a peace treaty with the thai and our relation to the other nations become better and better.

quote: We have the capability to both defend and attack effectively at this point.

no, we have the means to protect ourselves if neccessary, but not to wage a war against someone who is bigger and has a lead in science.

quote: The enemy will not be able to react to this with enough speed.

perhaps not with speed, but with power, as i said in the turnchat, we might be able to conquer, one perhaps even 2 cities... then they will strike back with their amassed forces and pummel us to death.

VOTE APP! VOTE Immortal Wombat!

	03-02-2003 14:57									#41
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Wow - I think the MoD elections are going to be the closest ones for a while...

	03-02-2003 17:03									#42
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Just to remind people of the MoD job description.

The MoD doesn't choose which units to build! The MoD doesn't decide if we go to war!

The MoD is responsible for moving troops during peace and war, and can poll if we should go to war or not.

So far I believe I've done good as MoD and work well with the other ministers during turn chats. Voting for me is not a vote for war or peace as that's the peoples decision (which I shall always respect)! I simply think we should be using the war option in terms of expansion.

But if war is declared either by us or another civ I believe I'm the best person to conduct that war!

	03-02-2003 17:19									#43
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i don't question, that you would be a good general, (btw. why do you question IW in that aspect?), but you are drawing a wrong picture of the job. though you can't declare war with a resolution, you can pretty easily move ourselves in a position, were war will be inevitable. i prefer a MoD who wants Defence and works in a way, peace can be secured, not someone who desperately wants to become a MoW.

	03-02-2003 17:47									#44
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I've been away for the weekend, but my views haven't changed. As most of us have played the game alot i really can't understand the reluctance to have a go at either the austrians or germans to make our empire grow, while taking out a future enemy. I would prefer to strike at recently founded cities first - with our low tech armies we would have a much higher success rate. As a strategy it always works against the AI(at least in Cradle which enables you to expand your empire and not just kill a small city automatically) and is one i use to help my early civ to grow while keeping the nearest AI threat down(as it gets lots of other bonuses).
So in this case i guess i can only vote for one of the candidates.....Turambar gets my vote

Last edited by child of Thor on 03-02-2003 at 18:22

	04-02-2003 00:47									#45
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hahaha WE ARE WINNING, come on people go War Party!

we are the only ones that can ensure ur future :.:

	04-02-2003 01:08									#46
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Sssssshhh! HuangShang, don't goad them like that or strangely we'll lose this vital poll Those hippies will get all motivated and leave their 'ass and grass' to vote us down

	04-02-2003 13:30									#47
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Still haven't decided yet.........

So I am still opened for 'suggestions'

Seriously, I think both could do a great job. Maybe I gonna through a coin????????

	04-02-2003 14:21									#48
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The world should stand united against oppressors of all kinds. For too long have we suffered under the tyranny of those who crave control and bloodshed for the sake of their own imperialistic ideals. We should do whatever we can to avoid unilateral action without diplomacy. Let’s not beat around the bush. Unite against war. Fight for peace. Before we all get crushed.

Vote IW.

Vote now. Vote often. Get cake.

	04-02-2003 15:14									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Devil of Truth Vote now. Vote often. Get cake.

Which cake?????????????

Is it a kind of bribe?

	04-02-2003 17:12									#50
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No bribe, we at the APP are fighting against corruption and would not allow any attempt to corrupt a citizen in order to get his vote.

Before you decide Gilgamensch bear in mind most of us at the APP believe a war is unfortunately impossible to avoid at one time or another. We also believe war should be the last resort, as there are still lands to settle the time is not for war but for peaceful expansion and defense force building.

Vote Immortal Wombat...

	04-02-2003 17:25									#51
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That's gonna be a tough one........... 15 / 15.

quote: We also believe war should be the last resort, as there are still lands to settle the time is not for war but for peaceful expansion and defense force building.

isn't offence the best defence

I am not a war monger, but sometimes it is better to go the rough line, as this slows the AI more down as the human. Plus you slow his growth as well.

There isn't so much space left anyway. We might have flex our muscles a bit, that we get some more elbow-room.

Another thing: No one can live in peace, if the evil neighbour doesn't agree.

I am not 'willing' to bribe our neighbours with 'my' gold, just to see them backstabing us a few turns later.

So if IW (/APP) can not come up with something convincing me, Turambar will get my vote.

PS: Still haven't voted.

	04-02-2003 17:39									#52
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Difficult to imagine you had not made up your mind before your previous post.

Turambar and his War Party believe our nation should attack the Austrians now, we think we should expand first and declare war later. Either you agree with us, either you agree with Turambar's war party.

	04-02-2003 17:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch isn't offence the best defence

The maxims of the famous or infamous generals of our history must not be confused with strategy.

I am pretty sure Sun Tzu would have advised you not to engage in a war you are sure to lose.

	04-02-2003 17:51									#54
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This election once again proves that elections are so much more interesting when there are at least 2 candidates running

	04-02-2003 18:14									#55
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quote: Turambar and his War Party believe our nation should attack the Austrians now

I've never said we should attack NOW at any point. Please find a quote before saying stuff like that. If my plan was to attack NOW then there would already of been an official poll about it.

We are not ready to attack anyone yet. We've got to finish the the settler off, get a new city settled then build up an army regardless of whether or not we want to attack. We're between to big civs and a large military is essential to surivival and expansion.

We will be going to war eventually whether we initiate it or not. And I'd rather be the attacker than the attacked. And add to this the fact that we're running out of room to grow, therefore if we don't take new land and cities at some point then we cannot grow much more. And no growth = us losing.

	04-02-2003 18:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch edit.... I am not a war monger, but sometimes it is better to go the rough line, as this slows the AI more down as the human. Plus you slow his growth as well. There isn't so much space left anyway. We might have flex our muscles a bit, that we get some more elbow-room. Another thing: No one can live in peace, if the evil neighbour doesn't agree. I am not 'willing' to bribe our neighbours with 'my' gold, just to see them backstabing us a few turns later. So if IW (/APP) can not come up with something convincing me, Turambar will get my vote.

Exactly my thoughts on our current situation
Which was why i ended up voteing for Turambar.

	04-02-2003 18:19									#57
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quote: I am pretty sure Sun Tzu would have advised you not to engage in a war you are sure to lose.

We are not engaged in a war or will we be for a while yet. I've no plans to plunge us into a war we will lose. Nor would the people of Lemuria let me do so.

We should obviously only enter a war when we are ready to do so. But we should look to be ready as soon as possible or war will be thrust upon us by other civs and barbs whilst we are unprepared.

	04-02-2003 18:22									#58
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I'd also like to hear some more from IW on the subject. Seems his APP friends are doing all the campaigning for him .

	04-02-2003 18:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Turambar I've never said we should attack NOW at any point. Please find a quote before saying stuff like that. If my plan was to attack NOW then there would already of been an official poll about it.

Sorry Turambar but I sincerely thought you wanted to declare war now as you have already expressed your opinion in favor of war in an earlier poll (tell me if I am wrong) and through various DG threads. My words are not meant to distort the truth.

When do you think our glorious nation should declare war?

Who should be our opponent?

How do you plan to prepare our nation for war?

	04-02-2003 18:40									#60
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quote: When do you think our glorious nation should declare war?

Once we have enough units to begin successfully taking enemy cities whilst also being able to defend ourselves. This of course will be decided by the people.

quote: Who should be our opponent?

Austria looks like the best target to me as they are the weakest of the two and have some nice looking city sites. Also the rivers into their territory / cities would speed up troop movement / reinforcements etc.

But again the people should decide who gets attacked.

quote: How do you plan to prepare our nation for war?

After this election I will come up with a plan for building up for and conducting war to present to the people. It can then be either accepted, changed or thrown out etc.