12-02-2001 15:00									#1
	Capturing Native Life Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

A number of times on the boards I've seen posts about capturing native life suggesting that you can only capture successfully at the start of your move (or possibly if you have a full movement point left). So a tame worm trolling through 3 fungus squares per turn will only capture wild natives successfully in the first square of fungus it enters.

I'd been playing the Nomad challenge this week as the Cult and noticed that I was capturing native life forms regularly with my worms on the 2nd and 3rd move in a single turn. I wondered whether this was perhaps specific to the Cult but in a game this evening, as the Gaians, my scout travelled through three squares of fungus on a river and captured 2 worms separately, in squares 2 and 3.

So I was just wondering whether others have seen the same thing?

	12-02-2001 16:31									#2
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Hmm, curious. I have certainly only ever seen captures made on the first move, and as far as I can tell, captures have only been attempted on the first move (ie, no "capture attempt failed" message appeared). I'd ask for a save, but I don't really have a working computer atm...

On a related note, what decides whether "These worms appear to be being directed by a vastly more powerful mind that normal worms"? It happens a lot in ecodamage worms, but by no means all the time, nor merely in eco-situations.

	12-02-2001 19:02									#3
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I also get that message when I am close to transcendence. I think it occurs before the Voice is built, but I'm not sure what the trigger tech is - possibly one of the Secrets?

	12-02-2001 19:57									#4
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Misotu,

You certainly do NOT need a full movement point remaining, to capture natives. I've often captured mindworms with 2/3, or even 1/3, movement points left. And this with rovers and infantry, as well as domesticated worms.

Whoever might have suggested otherwise, is talking out of their...diametrically opposed orifice.

	12-02-2001 20:40									#5
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Talking out of... experience, I'd say. I have the same experience as Chowlett; I have never captured natives with less than a full movement point left, and I do not get the 'Capture attempt failed' message if I try. I have to believe it when two so experienced players say you can, but it does surprise me...

	12-02-2001 21:55									#6
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It seems to me that native lifeforms suffer no penalty to attack and capture of other native lifeforms regardless of their movement remaining. Non-native units seem to need a full movement point (going in) to attack at full strength and presumably capture native lifeforms. I must admit that my own experience is limited here, as I often would rather pull back and / or defend rather than attacking at poor odds with a non-native unit.

	13-02-2001 10:29									#7
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I have had the same experience as Misotu, capturing native life with less than 1 full movement point left. I was going to post my experience then, but decided to wait for others to have the same thing happen. It happened for me with both a mind worm moving through fungus, and a scout moving along a river, both in the early game.

	13-02-2001 10:33									#8
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Tau Ceti,

No insult intended to any person living, or otherwise. Just my lame attempt at humor.

I think that Sikander hits the nail on the proverbial head. Given that many people "chicken out" of making the attacks when they have the hasty attack penalty, the odds of seeing a successful capture are dramatically reduced. If you never do it, you'll never see it!

If you only make the attacks during desperate moments, say 1% of the time of the time that you attack natives, and your capture rate is down to 10%, then (on average) you will only see the natives get captured with hasty attacks once in every thousand attacks. It would be easy for these successes to be overlooked during the course of play.

The reason that I have seen more successful hasty captures is that I run green economies, and play "green" factions quite often. Also, I am usually quite aggressive in MW farming. Generally, my bases (in SP, at least) have but a single defender. When you have a positive Planet rating, it is better to run out one tile on a road to hasty attack a stack of mindworms than to let them split up and occupy two tiles next to your base. Let Planet rating be x: then without regard to morale/lifecycle modifiers the chance of a successful attack is 1.5*.66*(1+(0.x)).

If you wait and succeed in capturing one of the boils, you are now out of the base, and the other will be able to move in. If you attack one and kill it, you become weaker (damaged) and the other boil(s) becomes stronger. Then you'll likely lose the defender, and possibly population, facilities, and even the base.

When all the possibilities are weighed, it is generally better to attack, even at lessened but still favorable odds.

JAMiAM

(Oops! Damned cookies! I guess that I just blew that DL. )
[This message has been edited by Lal Gore & the Sacred Ox (edited February 12, 2001).]

	13-02-2001 02:01									#9
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If you play, like me, with the odds displayed before attacking, there's no risk to attempting a capture. In any event, like JAMiAM, I tend to be fairly aggressive about attacking if I'm in a load of fungus with a conventional (ie non-native) unit because it's too hard to run away! My chances of surviving if I don't attack are so poor that it seems to me that it's almost always worth attacking. This is especially true in the early game, when the mindworms are tiny and pretty feeble - and of course, that's also when you're most likely to have a successful capture.

There's absolutely no doubt about it - I have captured mindworms with 2/3 or 1/3 move remaining at least a dozen times in these last two challenges as the Cult and the Gaians. Thought I was confused at first, so I started paying careful attention - definitely no mistake here. As you'd expect, it happens far more regularly as the Cult.
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited February 12, 2001).]

	13-02-2001 05:45									#10
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Sadly, the idea that you cannot successfully capture on less than a full movement point is a myth. Quite often I'll pick up advice from other posters and repeat it later on. NOTE TO SELF: never do this without testing first!

	13-02-2001 14:29									#11
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Sometimes it is better to wait and let the worms come to you. Suppose I have 2/3 of a movement point left. If I attack, I will have basically 1 to 1 odds vs the worm, whereas if I end my turn and let the worm attack me it will have a 3 to 2 advantage. (This advantage for the worm is completely wiped out once I have trance scouts.) The one thing that I can buy is time. The worm will have to waste it's next turn attacking my scout, and will not be able to wade into crawler and former territory. I would usually rather waste a turn rebuilding a scout than spend money on upgrading one or more crawlers or formers to armored / trance variants, or losing and replacing them. Thus I take the greater risk of losing the expendable in order to create a completely predictable situation that I can live with.

	13-02-2001 19:45									#12
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Sikander,

That's correct, and my tactic also, when dealing with a single worm. Unless it stops and starts munching my terraformed land. Then the nearest rover gets called in, or a brave scout unit goes out to face the boil down, to kill or capture.

Remember, with a positive Planet rating, even a 2/3 hasty attack will have better than even odds of success for the kill, should the capture fail.

	16-02-2001 00:11									#13
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Once or twice very early playing a green faction I've captured one worm, then an IOD unloads a couple of worms next to an undended city (or a heap of my crawlers) so I disband my existing worm and use the sure-capture feature to capture the two worms on 1/3 of a movement point (later the sure-capture thing goes away).

Something else, it seems wild mindworms don't use roads. And in means you can wait for the mindworm to come up the road to your city and then you can attack with full movement.

	16-02-2001 02:24									#14
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As a small note - I believe worms don't have a movement-combat penalty.

Most worm capture I have done has been done by captured worms roaming fungus. (Capture a worm and have it capture 10 more strategy playing a green faction).

I have several times captured worms on the 2 or third move with a worm going through fungus. According to odds they also attack with full strength even if only 1/3 movement point left.

Another worm anomaly btw is that worms repair quicker and to 100% strength (vs. the 80% of conventional units).

And a third is that wild worms will never attack captured ones. Meaning you will always have the attack bonus when using worms to capture worms.

I belive I have also captured worms with conventional units (rovers or infantry) and even with less than a full movement point left - but I cannot swear on this.


[This message has been edited by buster (edited February 15, 2001).]

	16-02-2001 03:30									#16
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Speaking of Sealurks... is there ever any reason to build one? And can you capture them? I can't remember if I ever had. Usually the only time I see the suckers is when they appear out of the sea and go straight for a base, which means (thanks to trancing all my garrisons) free morale upgrade gifts from the sea.

	16-02-2001 03:41									#17
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Sealurks are submarine. That's why you almost never see them until they attack. And that's also the reason to build them in MP (but not SP). They can also attack, and I think capture, coastal bases, which I think IoDs cannot.

	16-02-2001 09:03									#18
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You can capture wild sealurks, I did a test once and it worked. I've also seen two AI sea lurks which could only have been captured. (I've never managed to catch one in a normal game though, the way to do it would be to let the sealurk empty a base (it will sit outside the base forever basically) then attack it with a high movement ship, and this would have to be done early in the game. IOD's are much better to capture, but you can't deny Sea Lurks look damn cool.

The sealurk is cheaper than an IOD (by 1 row IIRC) so that's an advantage.

BTW anyone else ever noticed that if you bombard sporelaunchers (and possibly other worms) that can capture them.

	16-02-2001 20:41									#20
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As we have gone to sealurks I can take the time to alert you to a bug they have. They don't know that they are native life. My sealurks always move as conventional units in fungus. (Which kinda sucks, when the random gods decide that you should NEVER EVER meet an IoD, that in fact you should only see one aquatic native life form in 60 years of pod popping. Makes trolling the new sargasso for pods a hassle.)

	16-02-2001 23:02									#21
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OK, I think the message is:
"Capture attempt failed! Our psi talents report that these mind worms seem to be under the control of a vastly more powerful hive mind!"
That hive mind is Chiron, or Planet as some of us prefer to call it. Voice is sending these worms as a warning to you to cut back on ecodamage before it's too late. They also sometimes occur when Hercules approache perihelion.