31-01-2003 18:52									#1
	FAM's Office: 1340 AD Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We now have Steel. India would pay 128 gpt (2,560 gold total) for the privilege, whereas Rome could only afford to pay 55 gpt (1,100 gold total). My orders are to wait until Rome can pay 75 gpt or more for Steel, and then sell it for the maximum possible price to India, Rome and anyone else who could afford to pay over 50 gpt for it.
Now, on to the turn-by-turn orders.

Turn 0 (1340 AD, beginning of turnchat)
- Renegotiate peace with Zululand for 10 gpt.
- Our trade deal with Persia: Saltpeter, Iron and Dyes for 13 gpt, ends. We could renegotiate it for Iron, Dyes, Incense and Spices for 11 gpt and 32 gold, or we can just let the current deal ride, and initiate a new deal: Incense for 32 gold, while keeping our spices and making 13 gpt instead of 11 gpt. Therefore, I issue the order to trade Persia Incense for 32 gold.

Turn 1
- Our trade deal with India: Dyes for 18 gpt, ends. Renew this deal for maximum profit.

Turn 2
- If my calculations are correct, we should be able to sign a peace treaty with Japan. However, I understand that SMC Meshelic would like to sink a few more Japanese vessels. We are in no rush to end the war with Japan, so sign a peace treaty with Japan if all of SMC Meshelic's current Japanese targets have been eliminated.

Turn 3
- Our trade deal with Russia: Coal for 30 gpt, ends. Let the deal ride.

Turn 4
- No orders for this turn; act according to my general instructions.

Turn 5
- The trade embargoes vs. the Germans (if they're still on the map) end.

General Instructions
- When signing a peace treaty, try to maximize our profits! Demand (in the following order): gold, gpt, resources, luxuries, workers, maps. If the AI will agree to withdraw from a city/cities as well in exchange for peace, debate whether we want those cities during the turnchat (I leave the final decision to the cabinet, should I not be present during the turnchat).
- Check if any workers are available for purchase every turn, and buy if any are available. Slaves cost us near to nothing, and if we integrate them to our cities they will return the investment in just a few of turns.
- Opportunities come and go, and we don't wanna miss any! Check every turn if there are any opportunities to sell techs (for a minimum price of 1,500 gold in cash, gpt or mixed) or luxuries/resources (for a minimum price of 500 gold in cash, gpt or mixed; sell resources only to civs that are behind on 3 or more techs) to any of the AIs.
- In case I am not present during the turnchat, any or all of the above orders may be changed, should they become harmful or inappropriate. I recommend that the present cabinet be polled on any changes to my orders before they are made.

Any questions?

Last edited by Shiber on 01-02-2003 at 00:53

	31-01-2003 23:58									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

* Shameless bump *

	01-02-2003 00:06									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Society for a Sane Foreign Policy
Houston, Texas

basis 1340 ad save

turn 0
Renegotiate peace with Zululand for maximum profit. Forget the maps as they are now of no value to us. The AI's still value a fully opened map so by asking for it we are being unnecessarily hard nosed.

Persia will almost certainly backout of the current lux/resource deal. Let them. We should wait for them to move. It may be one turn or two turns or whatever in the future, but once they do, we acknowledge it and when it is our turn we trade them something pattently worthless (Communism) for all their lytons per turn and all their entire then current treasury. We will get it all, and for longer this way. It's not like they will be able to trade with anybody else, cause they be broke mon.

turn 1
Why bother renegotiating the deal. This simply reduces the lpt India will have available when we decide to deal in steel. Keep chatting up Caesar, and when he has enough coin to matter, immediately ring up Ghandi, Undo the dyes deal, and negotiate maximum lpt for steel. Then go back to Caesar for his best price, etc

turn 2
Nothing here except checking for the previously described deals and general orders

turn 3
Russia is broke. Renegotiating will most likely be at a loss so let it ride. When they break, acknowledge and on our turn offer an outdated tech such as Sci Meth for all their marbles. Then backcheck to see if they offer the same for a resource. Then act accordingly.

turn 4
outside of realistic turnchat window.

General orders.

1st 2 are ok, checking for workers is nice but no where near as attractive as indicated since we have more workers than available city slots. Buying workers from opponents is still a good idea simply because it slows down their development, and the coins always return at the next tech or resource deal.

3rd one is well intended but not very useful. The only Civs with coins are Rome and India. Japan may have some once we have peace, but we will see what we will see. We should not be setting hard pricing points. Our goal is simply to relieve them of their gold as conveniently as possible.

Notice the pattern. We want to keep them broke by offering them deals that they cannot refuse. It's a lot like the credit card gambit. Once they are ratcheded up to all tax + lux, there is no furthur reason to inflict more pain. Think of that tech deal as ratcheting up the tax rate on their people. A bigger line of credit so to speak.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	01-02-2003 00:52									#4
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Society for a Sane Foreign Policy Houston, Texas

So my orders are insane?
Good. At least we know now where we stand.
Seriously though, I like your suggestions much better when they're not given with an arrogant tone.

quote: Forget the maps as they are now of no value to us. The AI's still value a fully opened map so by asking for it we are being unnecessarily hard nosed.

You're right, good thinking. Point taken, orders changed, thanks.

quote: Persia will almost certainly backout of the current lux/resource deal. Let them. We should wait for them to move.

That deal has been left to ride since MSS's term. Persia has had plenty of time (at least 10 turns, I'm sure. Perhaps even more than that) to drop the deal and they haven't. What makes you think they'll drop it during the next set of turns?
Or have I misunderstood you?

quote: ...when it is our turn we trade them something pattently worthless (Communism) for all their lytons per turn and all their entire then current treasury. We will get it all, and for longer this way. It's not like they will be able to trade with anybody else, cause they be broke mon.

No, I'd rather sell them luxuries than worthless techs. Luxuries make them stronger, but we don't care because we are not threatened by them. I'd rather give them luxuries, which will save them the need to use the lux slider and throw away money - money which can be better spent by giving it to us in exchange for a continuing supply of luxuries.

quote: Why bother renegotiating the deal. This simply reduces the lpt India will have available when we decide to deal in steel.

I'd rather continue the deal with India. Contrary to technologies, India can buy luxuries from other civs as well. We should be the ones selling them dyes, not Russia.
Having said that, what difference does it make if we squeeze some more gpt out of the dyes deal, or if we get the same gpt a few turns later, from a tech deal? The answer is none.

quote: Keep chatting up Caesar, and when he has enough coin to matter, immediately ring up Ghandi, Undo the dyes deal, and negotiate maximum lpt for steel. Then go back to Caesar for his best price, etc

Just as I suggested, with the difference that I want to continue the dyes deal.

quote: Russia is broke. Renegotiating will most likely be at a loss so let it ride. When they break, acknowledge and on our turn offer an outdated tech such as Sci Meth for all their marbles. Then backcheck to see if they offer the same for a resource. Then act accordingly.

Hmm... you're probably right. Thanks.
Orders changed accordingly.

quote: checking for workers is nice but no where near as attractive as indicated since we have more workers than available city slots.

Not true. We have 55 cities if my count is correct, with two more on the way. To fill just half of them from 12 citizens up to 21 citizens, we'd need over 250 workers.

quote: and the coins always return at the next tech or resource deal.

Agreed.

quote: 3rd one is well intended but not very useful. The only Civs with coins are Rome and India. Japan may have some once we have peace, but we will see what we will see.

It's necessary, because the way I understand the constitution, Aro can't sign a tech deal if I did not approve it, so I leave general orders in case something interesting pops up during the turnchat and I'm not present.
I know chances are that this paragraph will not be needed, but you always gotta prepare.

quote: We should not be setting hard pricing points. Our goal is simply to relieve them of their gold as conveniently as possible.

Yes, but I gotta leave some orders. I can't just write "strike a deal if the other party offers enough gold". What is "enough gold"?
I'd accept suggestions to change the 'hard pricing points', but not suggestions to remove them altogether.

quote: Notice the pattern. We want to keep them broke by offering them deals that they cannot refuse. It's a lot like the credit card gambit. Once they are ratcheded up to all tax + lux, there is no furthur reason to inflict more pain. Think of that tech deal as ratcheting up the tax rate on their people. A bigger line of credit so to speak.

I agree. I'd sell old techs for as low as 500 gold, but every civ is either doing pretty well economically (e.g. India, Rome, Zululand) or is broke (e.g. Russia) or near broke (e.g. Greece) all of the time. The civs that are broke have either very little gpt or none, and a few gold coins (rarely over 100), which they never save up, and instead blow on rushes or other expenditures every turn.

	01-02-2003 03:07									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Um, please check out the notes on the Worker Integration Project under DM orders. (Under what to do if the war ends Friday and there's a turn chat Sunday.)

I'm not authorizing a worker joining as the 21st citizen anywhere. (They'd be specalists.)

The only open slots are those that produce at least 1 shield or 3 commerce per tile. (Before Improvements)

I guessestimate looking at terrign and city spacing, this will bring cities up to 16 1/2 on average; some unforunate cities would only get a 13th and 14th citizen via worker, but a few excelent city's would be brought up to the full 20 via workers.

Roughly 50 cities will grow to size 12 naturally before the Hospital is complete, for a need of 200 workers (either type). Additionly, some cities with fresh water access will be brought up to size 6; maybe about 20 more workers (either type) counting the two more cities on the way.

Buying workers for this project are welcome, but we don't need quite as stated.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Not true. We have 55 cities if my count is correct, with two more on the way. To fill just half of them from 12 citizens up to 21 citizens, we'd need over 250 workers.

	01-02-2003 04:43									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I see I wasn't up-to-date. I was still thinking in terms of Spiffor's worker integration plan, which is somewhat different. Thanks for the update joncnunn.
I still think that any workers that we'd buy and join to our cities will return the investment.

	03-02-2003 06:58									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have a question. What was the timeline of the declarations of war? Doesn't have to be precise, just whom declared war on whom in what order during this war?

	03-02-2003 10:30									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

First it was Rome that invaded our territory and then declared war, and launched a pathetic surprise attack comprised mostly of riflemen. The MPPs were activated against them, and against Germany as well shortly thereafter. Rome signed an alliance with the Babylonians and (IIRC) The Iroquois against us. The Iroquois were the first to sign a peace treaty with us. At some point, I'm not sure if before we signed peace with the Iroq. or afterwards (I'm inclined to believe it was afterwards), Japan staged an invasion from several Galleon+Frigate stacks. We signed peace with Rome, we eliminated Germany, and we are still at war with Japan, busy sinking wooden Japanese vessels with our ironclads and (pretty soon) two destroyers.
If you are looking for precise information, you can check the previous turnchat reports by the 8th, 7th and 6th term governments.

	03-02-2003 12:43									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Um, please check out the notes on the Worker Integration Project under DM orders. (Under what to do if the war ends Friday and there's a turn chat Sunday.) I'm not authorizing a worker joining as the 21st citizen anywhere. (They'd be specalists.) The only open slots are those that produce at least 1 shield or 3 commerce per tile. (Before Improvements) I guessestimate looking at terrign and city spacing, this will bring cities up to 16 1/2 on average; some unforunate cities would only get a 13th and 14th citizen via worker, but a few excelent city's would be brought up to the full 20 via workers. Roughly 50 cities will grow to size 12 naturally before the Hospital is complete, for a need of 200 workers (either type). Additionly, some cities with fresh water access will be brought up to size 6; maybe about 20 more workers (either type) counting the two more cities on the way. Buying workers for this project are welcome, but we don't need quite as stated.

hi ,

buying workers , do you mean foreign workers for around 10-20 gold from an other species capital , ...

have a nice day

	03-02-2003 15:14									#10
	Got spare money?

Yes. What else did you have in mind?

quote: Originally posted by panag ...from an other species capital...

Panag, please stop using this term. They are foreign civs, or AIs, not "other species". We're not Nazis, or Socio-Darwinists, we're enlightened people, or so we tell ourselves.
If you insist to continue using this term to describe other civs, at least refrain from uttering it in my office. Thank you.

	03-02-2003 16:21									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Yes. What else did you have in mind? Panag, please stop using this term. They are foreign civs, or AIs, not "other species". We're not Nazis, or Socio-Darwinists, we're enlightened people, or so we tell ourselves. If you insist to continue using this term to describe other civs, at least refrain from uttering it in my office. Thank you.

hi ,

when the game was first started we used that term , in the game we refered to the other civs as species because we felt that we alone where civilized , .....

it has never and is never meant to be a form of rasism or hate , it has never been intended to be affiliated with nazi or darwin or any other such form , .......

but if you have any feelings towards it the term shall no longer be used , it his however the first time anyone has made a regard to it , so soory if it might have caused some confusion , .....

however since those civ's are not showing any behaviour like a civilized civ its going to be difficult , ....

a PM with your remark would have let to an edit in the mail , ....

have a nice FAM day in the office

	03-02-2003 16:47									#12
	Suffering from ads?

I'm not offended, I just think that this term is very inappropriate.

	03-02-2003 21:45									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes; as long as you don't go crazy and get us over 150 of them.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber I see I wasn't up-to-date. I was still thinking in terms of Spiffor's worker integration plan, which is somewhat different. Thanks for the update joncnunn. I still think that any workers that we'd buy and join to our cities will return the investment.