01-02-2003 03:18									#1
	Discussion on border agreement with ND Tired of ads?

Lord Togas has produced this image for discussion:



The yellow line indicates what we should ask for.
The blue line indicates what we should settle for.

Discuss!

	01-02-2003 03:34									#2
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This looks reasonable for me.

The jungle will act as a natural border anyway. It will be very costly for either civ to settle cities at the other side of the jungle. So it looks logic to use the natural frontier as a formal one too.

	01-02-2003 03:41									#3
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If the lines would indicate the furtherest north that a city center is established, then I'm for it. Can we try to haggle for a middle position, atleast for the cultural boarders?? A middle position would allow us to get a city in around where the Madris Expedition is now.

Eta Tamali

	01-02-2003 04:12									#4
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In my mind, I don't think we can control where our cultural boundaries go, my feeling was that we could not settle north of the line, and they could not settle south of the line.

I would like to see where others of you would draw the line(s).

--Togas

	01-02-2003 04:56									#5
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I would let them have all the way down to our light blue line. That gives them breathing room to expand into. They may be more apt to actually uphold our claims in the south if we are willing to forgoe a little to our north.

The question remains in the long run: when we run out of expansion room, what then?

...WAR!!!

	02-02-2003 06:53									#6
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Could this be the meaning of my 'dreams' reported in this link?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...90&pagenumber=2

Manuel de Leon

	02-02-2003 08:42									#7
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I'd suggest that this be the prepared plan for the settlement agreement when our Lord Togas meets with this barbarian Sultan with the toothless grin. This gives us more than enough room for early expansion of our glorious empire, and a consolidated empire will allow us more time for infrastructure, and preparation of our magnificent armies...

	02-02-2003 13:38									#8
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The central part of the yellow line is not acceptable to them. I would rather draw a line from the blue line north of Zaragossa to the gold mountain.

	02-02-2003 17:38									#9
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I agree with DAVOUT, the initial proposal is a bit excessive, it might irritate them and make the negotiations collapse. I'd lower the eastern part by 1 or 2 tiles. Anyway they'll have to take most of the aqua line as it is, now that Zazagoza has been built.

	02-02-2003 21:15									#10
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I have suggested before that these negotiations should not be conclusive before we have settled by the area where the lake and the gold is. Here is the reason:

To have one city already in place there, would give us a valid argument to have the blue border extended onto the mountain range, where it will meet theirs.
(they can't demand removal of our city, after it has settled, and we cant do that to them either.)


If we just settle for the initial proposal (drawn above), I think we are being a bit too humble, and we miss some exploits: We don't get the gold-cliffs, a defensive mountainrange, possible trade route to ND, and the extended border.
(as being great advantages in the long run).


So I say, take the land! It's not very far from Madrid either.
Only 3 jungletiles + 1 hill (excl.grassland) needs to be roaded later... no problem, if you ask me.

	02-02-2003 21:34									#11
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Though the zone with the lake and the gold has very good lands, I feel it can be difficult to defend.

If they (or we) are very concerned about the culture borders, the deal can include a border for the city placement more than an actual land border. We don't put a city north of the blue line and they don't put a city south of the yellow line.

	02-02-2003 21:46									#12
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Hmm... Señor Oliver, that could be a good deal, but only temporarily. While we are occupied by settling the west and south, we can maintain such a deal.

Later... we can renegotiate and have a settler ready up there.
( if no one else settled the spot meanwhile, such as GoW or Lux)

	03-02-2003 02:16									#13
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I would again repeat my plea that we colonize north of the jungle by the gold and grain. even if it will be corrupt initially the strategic value IMO counters this.
also it will be hard to defend, but by the time anyone will be thinking seriously of attacking us it should be connected to the empire and be a thriving city.

Give me a few men willing to settle there and I will lead them to greatness when all others claim ruin!

	03-02-2003 02:33									#14
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I am reserving that area to "give" to Neu Dem in case we must, but if we get Cow Valley settled at a rapid rate and thereby beat them to the south, we will quickly move to this area as well and try to control it.

And perhaps Senor LzPrst will indeed be given command of a group of settlers and a spear division to establish our first northern city.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 20:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by oliverfa Though the zone with the lake and the gold has very good lands, I feel it can be difficult to defend.

But there are hills and mountains at the NW of the lake. With fortified positions, we could defend it.

And think on this : my wife and yours are discussing on how they will be pretty with northern gems well arranged around their necks !

	03-02-2003 20:36									#16
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I always wonder why women are fascinated by things impossible to get whereas they are completely indifferent to three times more of the exactly identical gems available in the south ...

	03-02-2003 20:41									#17
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We have to consider that the other nations are discussing the very same issue we are. The defence of a Sierra shiny city. Remember, we have no obstacles and can charge in easily while the enemy must come over the hills and mountains. It is closer to us than it is to them, and more defendable. We must build there ASAP.

ps. am i the only one who cant see the border map?

	03-02-2003 21:04									#18
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If we do like you say, Señor Meneñdez... and settle for the northern spot ASAP, I think the ND expansion planners would look a little like this-->

And us: Mwuhahaaa...


If we don't... we miss that opportunity, but on the other hand
we can try to negotiate and make it a temporary demilitarized no-settlement zone. Like you say, we are closer... so we can block off the access with our units, when the no demilitarized no-settlement treaty goes out. (therefore, a temporary treaty)

We must try to make such a treaty, if we are not going to settle there yet.


These options depends on what El Dictatóre decides...
(looks like he is not planning to settle there yet, so we need this treaty)

	03-02-2003 21:58									#19
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again I must emphasize that even though ND might agree to such an agreement GoW probably wont.
IF they settle there they will road the mountains and be able to bring in troops like no problem. Also theyll be able to ride the open grasslands all the way down to #14. Who will protect it? #8? Theyll never get around to leaving the jungle. Madrid? Its a very long run.
Thats why we MUST have a city up north with fortified mountains, to slow the enemy down as much as possible!
Remember the weak link of the chain. If the north is weak, an amy can march along the coast towards Madrid!

Theres also the economic aspect. What if there are no more gems on the continent than those 4 we've spotted? If we had a monopoly on a luxury that would put us in a very nice position indeed.

	03-02-2003 22:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst Theres also the economic aspect. What if there are no more gems on the continent than those 4 we've spotted? If we had a monopoly on a luxury that would put us in a very nice position indeed.

Well, if the gems that we can see currently are the only gems on the continent and someone did manage to settle that northern area first, we would still have a practical monopoly on gems for trade purposes.

	03-02-2003 22:12									#21
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I agree that it is in our best interest to settle the valley north of Madrid, and we will be requesting this valley in the coming negotiations with Neu Dem. However, I am prepared to give up parts of this valley in order to ensure that they will not meddle with Cow Valley.

But as every day passes, I become more confident that we may not need a border agreement. Once we establish the silk city, we will have given reason to Neu Dem to not settle in our valley. They would not plant a city in the midst of our culture.

Once that city site is settled, our bargaining position increases greatly, and the only reason we'd have to give Neu Dem any part of the valley above Madrid is to encourage peace and to make a "Neu Dem wall" to our north that would require anyone attacking us first attack them.

Let's continue to discuss this issue.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 22:14									#22
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Okay, I would draw the blue line one square north of where it is.

On the other hand, I don't beleive that a border agreement is in our best interests. Still, if we do agree to one, I would rather not press our luck against the patience of ND. They think the same way about those mountains no doubt, and I don't want a war with them.

	03-02-2003 22:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Once that city site is settled, our bargaining position increases greatly, and the only reason we'd have to give Neu Dem any part of the valley above Madrid is to encourage peace and to make a "Neu Dem wall" to our north that would require anyone attacking us first attack them.

How are we going to go about marking out the blue line as our border and then immediately settle beyond that and all without p*ssing them off?

	03-02-2003 22:22									#24
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If it turns out that the nasty GoW really do settle there, then I think we shall forge an alliance with the ND and smack GoWs asses blue and yellow...
Then we will capture that city before ND does. It would also mean the complete annihilation of the GoW, or perhaps just a 1/2 number of cities reduction just to make them bleed really bad. If GoW tries to oppose us, I will eat their liver, and put their heads on the horns of El Torros de Pamplona.

- Ohmygod, now I almost felt like a GoW member... phew, good thing I'm here with you niceguys in Spain. I need a job in the Spanish army I guess?

	03-02-2003 22:27									#25
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser How are we going to go about marking out the blue line as our border and then immediately settle beyond that and all without p*ssing them off?

The map is for internal use only. We are not going to show that copy to them. We are going to request that our border be the yellow line and then negotations will commense once know where they want the border.

The blue line represents the most territory I would be willing to give them.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 22:27									#26
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser How are we going to go about marking out the blue line as our border and then immediately settle beyond that and all without p*ssing them off?

Ruby... that's true, but I guess they will be kinda pissed if we settle there anyway. The Pharao will look like this--->
This site is very likely in the ND sphere of interest.


Togas, the blue line is our 'worst case' scenario then?

	03-02-2003 22:28									#27
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Sounds more like you need a place in a mental institution, or the priesthood as its also called

but seriously. it is vital that we build there.
a trade monopoly on gems we might we have, but one more civs' begging for our gems cant be bad for us.
and ND knows that for them its a bad spot for a city.

	03-02-2003 22:45									#28
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It's not so bad for ND, if they have very little space to extend borders elsewhere. I dunno about that, but we have lots of such space. As well as for us, this site is critical for all our neighbours to seize when there is no unsettled areas to reach. (without boats)


We are in the position to prevent anyone from obtaining more lands than us( without boats)... Soon, our West coast border will be consolidated, and ND might try to grab the Eastern opportunity.(rather than down south) That's why I think they will be kinda pissed when they find one of our cities up there too. (Mwuhahaa) It's all about EXpansione Rapido.



BTW: (optional reading about MP gameplay)
Once in an early MP game I had some Babylonian bowmen, in which I threatened one niceguy to leave with his settler from my 'promised lands'.
He quickly replied: "Ok. Please, dont kill me! Its my first game." and I felt sooo bad... so damn bad. Later, I traded techs and luxes to him, and we became more and more friends.
Same culture, same enemies, it turned out to be a good game!

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 03-02-2003 at 23:10

	05-02-2003 04:29									#29
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Since History Guy will not be available I need to have someone fill in for him tomorrow when we meet with Neu Dem to discuss our borders.

The meeting will be at Wednesday, February 5.th at 7 PM GMT (that is 3 PM in NYC), however, I am unclear what channel it will be on. I have PM'd History Guy to find out.

I need someone to serve as the unofficial ambassador to Neu Dem because I will be at the office during the negotiations and might have to suddenly leave the computer to tend to a work-related issue. I will otherwise take an active part in the negotiations.

Please PM me if you are interested.

Negotiation policy -- it is vitally important that we do not annoy Neu Dem at this meeting. We will likely be asking for more land than they want to give us, but we must act naive to that fact and act as though our proposal is absolutely reasonable, given how close the land is to our capital.

We do not want to argue or offend, we want to discuss and inform. If nothing can be worked out, we must try to keep matters very civil and friendly and thank them for speaking with us and keep open the possibility of future discussions and negotiations.

I will email to my "temporary ambassador" the .jpg that I plan to send ... I am sending a cut copy of the one Dejon posted that only shows the yellow line.

--Togas

	05-02-2003 17:36									#30
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quote: New Map for the border negotiations with Neu Dem