01-02-2003 07:53									#1
	Parliament may investigate whether E.U. funds back Palestinian terrorism Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: BRUSSELS, Jan. 31 (JTA) — The European Union has taken an important step toward investigating whether its donations to the Palestinian Authority are being used to fund terrorism. On Thursday, Francois Zimeray, a French member of the European Parliament, announced he had gathered enough signatures for the body to debate whether to form a commission of inquiry. Zimeray succeeded in convincing 170 Parliament members to put an inquiry on the agenda. However, a majority of the 626-person Parliament is necessary to actually form an inquiry commission. Still, the petition marks a significant step for backers of an inquiry, who want the European Union to investigate Israeli allegations that the Palestinian Authority is using donor funds to finance terrorism. Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, the European Union has provided about $1.4 billion in various forms of aid to the Palestinian Authority. Since the intifada began more than two years ago, the European Union has been providing about $10 million a month in special assistance to help the Palestinian Authority meet its budgetary obligations. Israeli officials have been especially adamant about the issue since an invasion of the West Bank last spring uncovered documentation that Palestinian Authority President Yasser Ararat had authorized payments to known terrorists. Even if the E.U. money doesn’t go directly for terrorism, Israeli officials have argued, it frees up other funds that Arafat can funnel to terrorists on the payroll of the P.A. security services or in the various militias of Arafat’s Fatah movement. “It is the parliament’s job to supervise the executive,” David Sumberg, a member of the European Parliament from England, told Chris Patten, the E.U.’s commissioner for external relations. “If we cannot inquire on how the money is spent, we might just as well close our shop up.” Patten has resisted, saying last fall that the European Union needs an investigation like it needs “a hole in the head.” Though the inquiry demand is couched in the language of good government, Patten sees it as a veiled attack on the E.U.’s policy of supporting the Palestinian Authority, which Patten considers the only credible negotiating partner for Israel. In addition, supporting the Palestinian Authority allows the European Union to exercise influence in Mideast affairs. “Do you want to uncover the wrongdoings of me and my staff or to make it impossible for the” European Commission, the E.U.’s executive arm, to support the Palestinian Authority? Patten asked last November. “If the Parliament decides that the E.U. should not assist the Palestinians, it should say so and the commission would comply.” Calls for an inquiry began last summer after Thomas Dawson, an official with the International Monetary Fund, indicated that the IMF doesn’t monitor foreign assistance the European Union provides. “The IMF simply provides the E.U. with information about broad developments related to its budget,” Dawson told the Wall Street Journal last June. “It does not monitor or control every item in the budget.” The petition was begun by Ilka Schroeder, a German member from the Green Party. But Schroeder wanted to keep a low profile, so most of the lobbying was done by Zimeray and Charles Tannock, a British Tory. Zimeray and Tannock are known as friends of Israel, leading opponents to argue that the petition masked a pro-Israel agenda. The petition’s success seemed in doubt until the last minute, but Zimeray ultimately managed to secure more than the 157 signatures necessary to put the item on Parliament’s agenda. “Every single one is the result of much lobbying within the corridors of the European Parliament,” he said. The signatures include many Germans, British and Italians, but practically no Socialists or Greens. Zimeray is one of the only members of the European Socialist group to sign. Left-wing groups were reluctant to take a stand that might be construed as support for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, whose policy of military retaliation for Palestinian terrorism is harshly criticized here. In addition, Parliament sources say Patten himself called deputies to discourage them from signing the petition, leading several members to retract their signatures. Some who signed are considered friends of Israel, while others saw the proper oversight of E.U. money as a simple question of good governance. In addition, some apparently saw the petition as a way to strengthen the Parliament while weakening the European Commission — though others refused to sign for precisely that reason.

http://www.jta.org/page_view_story....intcategoryid=2
Discuss.

	01-02-2003 08:35									#2
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Can't be true. Everybody knows that Euros do no wrong. That's the USA's department....

-=Vel=-

	01-02-2003 08:44									#3
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I know! The EU must be controlled by the same zionists that control Canada when it decided not to fund terrorism.

	01-02-2003 09:57									#4
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I want to know where my money goes. I find it amazing that this has to be even debated. I thought they check what our money buys. Not just give it away. That's a good way to support dictators etc.
Anyway, not to say it is funding terrorism, it must be cleared out. If it in fact is funding terrorism, and suicide bombers, I say let's forget giving money and send some troops there to settle down scores. Take every penny back. Why don't we just send stuff like food, medicine etc? Some amounts of money will always go to the wrong pockets anyway. Building material etc. Just send what they would need to buy with it. They don't hand money to their citizens anyway. I hope it's not going to be another embarrasing moment for us euros, but if it's going to be so, I hope they will make tough decisions, stop sending money and send aid plus take down all the criminals stealing our money. Personally I don't care who it is, but if its stealing from us, we must make them pay with interests!

	01-02-2003 10:40									#5
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If you did some in-depth study on every single money trail in the entire world, I'm sure you'd find that nearly every bit of aid or business deal in the Arab world eventually leads to funding terror.

Oil is probably the biggest one BTW.

Interesting article though DD ... I'll be curious to read follow-ups.

	02-02-2003 04:00									#6
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Any more europeans care to respond?

	02-02-2003 05:22									#7
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When is the US going to investigate whether the huge amounts of cash it 'loans' to Israel are used for building settlements or WMDs?

	02-02-2003 05:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman When is the US going to investigate whether the huge amounts of cash it 'loans' to Israel are used for building settlements or WMDs?

Can't you Europeans ever stay on topic? The article is about actions taken by EU parlimentarians, US aid to Israel is another topic entirely.

	02-02-2003 06:44									#9
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Shi: Sandman supports the use of EU funds to support the murder of civilians as long as the US continues to send "loans" to Israel. At least the impression he gives with his statement.

	02-02-2003 06:44									#10
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Sava, sure, but I'm not interested about that.. bad guys will always get money and money goes around. I'm interested where my tax money goes directly and how it is used. If we don't know, then how are we supposed to know how its effecting? By taking their word 'yes yes, if you send more money things will get better' is stupid mans game. If I don't get to see how the money is used, then I don't support giving that money, because it's not then going to the right address.
I don't support giving money anyway. I support giving food, medicine, knowledge, teachers, nurses, building material, books, clothes, toys, sport stuff like footballs etc, workers to aid to get things started and give instructions etc. And if the situation is hot, or we can't be sure if its nto going to be used, but sold forward, then either they let our troops to come there and really make sure they're used correctly and submit wrong doers or they can cry and kiss my butt. If they are laying in some storage, never getting used, then they can also cry few rivers, then I don't care. But we must help people who need help, and if they co-operate which is I think reasonable to demand, then sure.. if not, I'll close my ears and eyes.

And if for example we find out that our money has gone to terrorists, we need to investigate it, and either kidnap then to be tried in our countries or killed in spot. Nothing else will work against these thugs. And no matter who is putting the money in their own pockets, same treatment, which is come with us or die.

	02-02-2003 06:56									#11
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We also need to think about the whole cycle of that money and how it really works..
If it goes to fund terrorists it's not just one crime. First of all they STEAL from us. Then they steal from their people who really need it. Then they support arms dealers etc when they buy weapons and explosives. Then they go up and kill Israeli people. Now that's many crimes and totally unacceptable. And these people are not even helping Palestinian cause, so they should be seen as traitors to everyone and should be tried or if that's impossible then killed, because these people can't just run free. Simple.
I don't know what's wrong with euros, they don't want to form military force, and they don't want to know where that money goes. I say it's time to lower that pinky down, stop talking funny and kick some ass!

	02-02-2003 07:07									#12
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quote: Can't you Europeans ever stay on topic? The article is about actions taken by EU parlimentarians, US aid to Israel is another topic entirely.

Point taken.

quote: Shi: Sandman supports the use of EU funds to support the murder of civilians as long as the US continues to send "loans" to Israel. At least the impression he gives with his statement.

1. It's certainly not been demonstrated that the aid is going towards terrorist campaigns against civilians. Hence the investigation.

2. Better the EU is giving them money than even more of it coming from dodgier sources.

3. It's a pittance anyway.

	02-02-2003 07:09									#13
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See.

	02-02-2003 07:25									#14
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"1. It's certainly not been demonstrated that the aid is going towards terrorist campaigns against civilians. Hence the investigation."

Then why is Patten opposing the inquiry? Moreover, Arafat has been linked to supporting terrorism, if you would have noted evidence linking Arafat to terrorist groups was found during the attack on Arafat's compound.

"2. Better the EU is giving them money than even more of it coming from dodgier sources."

I doubt the money they are getting would be that easily replaced.

"3. It's a pittance anyway."

$10 million a month a pittance?

	02-02-2003 07:29									#15
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quote: . Better the EU is giving them money than even more of it coming from dodgier sources.

So by that logic, we better pay criminals, so they won't have to sell crack or rob our houses?

quote: It's certainly not been demonstrated that the aid is going towards terrorist campaigns against civilians. Hence the investigation.

Nor is it demonstrated anywhere where the money does go to. Hence the investigation.

	02-02-2003 08:15									#16
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quote: Then why is Patten opposing the inquiry? Moreover, Arafat has been linked to supporting terrorism, if you would have noted evidence linking Arafat to terrorist groups was found during the attack on Arafat's compound.

But we don't know it's EU money being used.

quote: I doubt the money they are getting would be that easily replaced.

Maybe.

quote: $10 million a month a pittance?

Yes. Given the PAs needs and the corruption, it's not very much.

quote: So by that logic, we better pay criminals, so they won't have to sell crack or rob our houses?

So you'd prefer to live with even more terrorism than see aid given to the Palestinians?

quote: Nor is it demonstrated anywhere where the money does go to. Hence the investigation.

"As of yet we have little idea of where the money is going." Happy?

	02-02-2003 08:50									#17
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quote: So you'd prefer to live with even more terrorism than see aid given to the Palestinians?

strawman alert.

I never objected to giving aid to the palestinians.

I objected to giving aid which ends up funding terrorism, and this is what the discussion is about.

quote: "As of yet we have little idea of where the money is going." Happy?

your point?

i say: "no one tracks the money, and there are suspicions that it funds terrorism".
you quote an official: "we have no idea where the money really goes to"

quote: But we don't know it's EU money being used.

Whether Arafat uses this money to build himself a house, or fund a terrorist doesn't matter.

What matters is that people should be sure that the aid money does reach the palestinians, instead of private bank accounts, or turns into ammunition.

	02-02-2003 12:26									#18
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This inquiry will go nowhere because everyone already knows the answer, the money funds terror because that is what the PA does with its money.

And, no, they will not cut the PA off. They consider the Palestinian side to be the cause to back, morally.

Also, Israel already knows that today's EU, dominated by France and Germany, is an enemy. France and Germany are also no friends of the United States.

In the words of Rumsfeld, France and Germany are "problem" states.

I personally have seen enough. If France and Germany do not come around on Iraq, for instance, I would be in favor of severing military ties with these countries and placing them on a restricted list (for visa, information flow, etc.) reserved for enemy states. I would extend that to Greece and any other close supporter of those two countries.

	02-02-2003 12:57									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Moreover, Arafat has been linked to supporting terrorism, if you would have noted evidence linking Arafat to terrorist groups was found during the attack on Arafat's compound.

I'm really dubious about that statement. Who uncovered the evidence, the Israelis, or an impartial investigator? The Israel governemt is certainly not above planting evidence to support their cause IMO.

	02-02-2003 13:26									#20
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EU institutions are moving against the general current in the world and is trying to develop its democratic institutions.

It is clear that working for justice for the Palestinians must be done within a legal framework involving clear accounting practices.

Support for the Palestinian cause will be made much more effecient that way.

	02-02-2003 16:35									#21
	Re: Parliament may investigate whether E.U. funds back Palestinian terrorism Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Little difference between "E.U. funds back Palestinian terrorism" and "whether its donations to the Palestinian Authority are being used to fund terrorism", isn´t it?

	02-02-2003 18:00									#22
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quote: strawman alert. I never objected to giving aid to the palestinians. I objected to giving aid which ends up funding terrorism, and this is what the discussion is about.

Um, you suggested that I support giving money to criminals so they wouln't have to commit crimes, the strawman is of your making.

According to the one opinion in the article, ANY aid is bad, since it frees up funds from other sources that could be used for terrorist activities. Frankly, I think that reducing aid will make terrorism and the plight of the general population worse.

quote: Whether Arafat uses this money to build himself a house, or fund a terrorist doesn't matter. What matters is that people should be sure that the aid money does reach the palestinians, instead of private bank accounts, or turns into ammunition.

Well, it's difficult to find out where aid goes in normal situations, let alone in the PAs territory.

How do you invisage the money getting to the people and not the terrorists?

	02-02-2003 18:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I personally have seen enough. If France and Germany do not come around on Iraq, for instance, I would be in favor of severing military ties with these countries and placing them on a restricted list (for visa, information flow, etc.) reserved for enemy states. I would extend that to Greece and any other close supporter of those two countries.

If you gonna put allys with such a hurry on your enemy list, you gonna have no allys left by tomorrow and exchanged them for enemys.

Funny thing your opinion indeed

	02-02-2003 18:14									#24
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Ned, You got it backwards. France and Germany are strong supporters of the Greek stance.

	02-02-2003 23:47									#25
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"
But we don't know it's EU money being used."

Again as the article says even if EU money isn't being used directly to help terrorist, it could be used to free up $ for terrorist ventures.

"
Yes. Given the PAs needs and the corruption, it's not very much."

$120 million/year is still quite a bit of money especially considering how much of Palestinian weapondry is inexpensive. But even it is a pittance, it isn't ok to fund terrorism even by a small amount.

"

So you'd prefer to live with even more terrorism than see aid given to the Palestinians?"

How has EU aid influenced Palestinian behavior in any positive way at all?

"
"As of yet we have little idea of where the money is going." Happy?"

So does this mean you support the inquiry and shutting off aid it if turns out it is going to terrorism?

"I would be in favor of severing military ties with these countries and placing them on a restricted list (for visa, information flow, etc.) reserved for enemy states."

I hardly see how that will help anything

	03-02-2003 00:17									#26
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Quote reply-o-matic:

quote: Again as the article says even if EU money isn't being used directly to help terrorist, it could be used to free up $ for terrorist ventures.

I dismiss this view above. Anyway, what does it free up money from? Schools? Hospitals? Sanitation?

quote: $120 million/year is still quite a bit of money especially considering how much of Palestinian weapondry is inexpensive. But even it is a pittance, it isn't ok to fund terrorism even by a small amount.

It's not wrong to think you're funding social stuff, only to have a portion of that money used in a way you don't expect it to be. That's the problem of giving aid.

quote: How has EU aid influenced Palestinian behavior in any positive way at all?

It makes them not hate everyone in the West. It reduces their desperation just a bit. It could fund educational programmes to produce replacement moderate Palestinian leaders. It makes them less likely to turn to crime.
How has the pittance of aid influenced Palestinian behaviour in any negative way?