01-02-2003 10:53									#1
	FP city flips! Get a bigger avatar today!

Don't build the Forbidden City in a captured city!

As the Koreans, I used a Great Leader to rush-build my FP in Upsala, which I recently captured from the Iroquois (they had won it from the Vikings centuries earlier). On the turn after the FP was completed, the city flipped back to the Iroquois!

The city had only one Iroquois citizen out of a total of six. Everyone was content or an entertainer. It was garrisoned with two units, and it had a Temple, but not much else.

My guess is that it flipped because it was not a native Korean city. Anyone else see this behavior?

	01-02-2003 12:49									#2
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No. That would probably cost me a monitor...

	01-02-2003 13:09									#3
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I never built FP outside of my old core. I would have built a palace instead and it will not flip. Well it should not, but I have heard one or two stories.
It would not be out on the edge. It would be some what in, with a few cities nearby. Not touching borders other civs, at least one city for a buffer.

	01-02-2003 14:50									#4
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Purple's catastrophe has been mentioned here once before. While his cits had no affect on the odds, the probability is quite small. Most people DO put the FP into captured cities, and it is probably worth the risk. Of course, if one had a Settler available....

	01-02-2003 23:02									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Purple's catastrophe has been mentioned here once before. While his cits had no affect on the odds, the probability is quite small. Most people DO put the FP into captured cities, and it is probably worth the risk. Of course, if one had a Settler available....

The sad thing is, I had just built a "native" city nearby to fill in a development gap. I could have built the FP there!

	02-02-2003 01:35									#6
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Oh, this is bad luck... Never happened to me before, and I remember building the FP in a captured city sometimes.

	02-02-2003 06:23									#7
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It's reasonns such as these that I abandon captured cities and move the palace, and keep the FP around my origional core cities.

remember when you capture a city the city still retains the foreign culture it has accrued under the old civ, and the FP does not factor into the CF formula. Moving the palace close to the newly captured cities is a good way to prevent flips such as these.
Of course this type of a flip is a rarity but the possibility does exist.

	03-02-2003 14:07									#8
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The one time this happened to me I broke one of my "rules" and reloaded from the auto-save and added a few more units to the city. Luckily that worked, and after a few turns the FP with the rushed temple and library had pushed the borders out. *phew* I've never seen a city flip once the borders have expanded, but I'm sure its possible.

-Jam

	03-02-2003 15:33									#9
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If my culture score was lower than the enemy's then I'd take the risk. Early on in the game (which is when the FP comes into play anyway) there isn't much risk of flipping. If the enemy has a bigger culture score then I'd probably be a bit more cautious.

	03-02-2003 15:38									#10
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Try playing against the Babs on Emperor. They ALWAYS have about twice my culture, whatever I do. Stupid @&*#ing AI building bonus +religious + scientific. How is it possible to compete culturally?

-Jam

	03-02-2003 16:50									#11
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Im my current game, both the palace and FP are in captured cities. But both were captured in early stages.

Recently I captured Moscow and it flipped after 2 turns although I rush built a temple. Got it back just as fast, but... One thing was puzzling. I also captured all the surrounding cities as well. So there was no contact, no neighbouring culture influence to influence Moscow. Or does the culture factor influence cities in some other way?

I saw someone post a formula on probability of a city to flip. Maybe if someone took the time to find it...

	03-02-2003 19:45									#12
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I've seen worse. Once one of my cities flipped back to the americans. It was a size 23 city with over 1000 culture points, it was 15 tiles away from what was left of american territory(two crappy towns) and I had owned it for centuries. Turned out that there were still 6 american citizens left in the city. Their culture(in that city) was also over 2000.

I wiped them out the next turn...

	05-02-2003 00:00									#13
	Re: FP city flips! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Purple As the Koreans, I used a Great Leader to rush-build my FP in Upsala, which I recently captured from the Iroquois (they had won it from the Vikings centuries earlier). On the turn after the FP was completed, the city flipped back to the Iroquois!

This raises an interesting question: What if Iroquois had already built FP elsewhere and then what you described happens? Does Iroquois now have two FP? This is unlikely in single-player because I have never seen AI build the FP, but something like this could definitely happen in multiplayer......

Most likely what happens in single player is that the game crashes during AI's turn...

	05-02-2003 00:33									#14
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When you conquer a city, none of the culture-producing improvements survive. I assume this also applies when a city changes hands due to culture flipping. If so, it would be impossible to capture a second FP.

	05-02-2003 00:54									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Purple When you conquer a city, none of the culture-producing improvements survive. I assume this also applies when a city changes hands due to culture flipping. If so, it would be impossible to capture a second FP.

Great Wonders will survive, but not generate any culture for the captors. So, you think that FP, a Small Wonder, is treated as a city improvement when captured and not as a Wonder? You could be right, I guess. I dont know - I've never seen this happen before...

	05-02-2003 01:03									#16
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FPs are destroyed when you capture a city. AI's build them all the time(use a spy and see for yourself) but like any other small wonder they are destroyed upon capture.

	05-02-2003 01:04									#17
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Freephi:

Yes GW's do survive, but SW's do not, they are destroyed and placed back into the civ's build list.

	05-02-2003 03:56									#18
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Makes sense. You couldn't just capture all your enemies' Iron Works, for example. We need more kinds of Forbidden Palace WOnders. Like a Summer Palace and such that would have the same effects.

	05-02-2003 12:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi Great Wonders will survive, but not generate any culture for the captors. So, you think that FP, a Small Wonder, is treated as a city improvement when captured and not as a Wonder? You could be right, I guess. I dont know - I've never seen this happen before...

All small wonders have special treatment when you capture a city with it. Here are the rules:

Great Wonders: Are never razed, but stop generating culture.
Small Wonders: Are always razed.
Culture generating improvements: Are always razed.
Aqueduct and Hospital: Are never razed.
Other improvement: May or may not be razed.

	05-02-2003 12:56									#20
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If one indeed mods Summer Palaces, Winter Palaces etc, is the AI able to use them efficiently?

I've had a enemy city flip to single enemy city on the other side of the globe.... size two... only been capital for 10 turns.

	05-02-2003 12:56									#21
	Re: FP city flips! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Purple As the Koreans, I used a Great Leader to rush-build my FP in Upsala, which I recently captured from the Iroquois (they had won it from the Vikings centuries earlier). On the turn after the FP was completed, the city flipped back to the Iroquois!

This has to be the most unfortunate culture flipping story I have heard of.

	05-02-2003 23:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun If one indeed mods Summer Palaces, Winter Palaces etc, is the AI able to use them efficiently?

I'm sure they build them since they pop up as default build options for the human. But I don't now where they put them or if they know completing the FP is a priority, probably bigger than GW building. Does anyone have experience with where the AI builds the FP and/or Summer, Winter... ?

Come to think of it, there should be some fairly simple calculations the AI could do to determine which location will give the FP the largest production/commerce increase. The computer could simply do X simulations for X cities, pretending that the FP is built and observing which placement has the greatest impact. Of course, this wouldn't account for future expansion; but more complex models could give weight to distance to capitol, number of cities within the FP's effective range, amount of settleable space nearby, etc.

	06-02-2003 01:29									#23
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I haven't done an exhaustive search for AI FP's but I see them from time to time when I spy on AI cities. My impression is that the AI will build them ASAP, which mean that most of the time they will be built in one of their core cities. I think it's a good chioce as the AI can't plan much forward. Myself I tend to build FP's very late(maybe too late?), wasting much time and production/gold while I build/conquer new cities.