01-02-2003 17:12									#1
	Eat this, you cheap pirates! Full PM-box? Change here!

Meet WIPO. A world wide organization of countries which have joined this organization to help implement proper copyrights.
To all those who say that their country doesn't have copyright laws and so they can legally d/l warez, first check here, find the proper file (under about), and see if your country is in the list. If it is...then search Google for information about the Berne Convention, which is one of the foundations of wipo. You will truly see that you are thusly illegal in breaking copyright.

I also point you to a specific article in the treaty:

Article 4
Computer Programs

Computer programs are protected as literary works within the meaning of Article 2 of the Berne Convention. Such protection applies to computer programs, whatever may be the mode or form of their expression.

Now, I'm assuming that most people here are in a listed country...many small African countries and many of the -stans are. Even Iraq. So don't any of you give crap about "Our country has no copyright laws...it's legal here." You're most probably lying!

	01-02-2003 17:29									#2
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Well, better tell my sis...

	01-02-2003 17:30									#3
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I've never heard anyone deny that it's illegal to download warez. (except maybe for abandonwarez)


Do you think that this means anything to software pirates?

	01-02-2003 17:45									#4
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I'm shocked.

	01-02-2003 17:50									#5
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Does anybody here ever claim that there country has no copyright laws?

	01-02-2003 19:34									#6
	Re: Eat this, you cheap pirates! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Article 4 The protection of this Convention shall apply, even if the conditions of Article 3 are not fulfilled, to: * (a) authors of cinematographic works the maker of which has his headquarters or habitual residence in one of the countries of the Union; * (b) authors of works of architecture, erected in a country of the Union or of other artistic works incorporated in a building or other structure located in a country of the Union.

This is the Berne Convention. I have no idea where you got your Article 4 from.

	01-02-2003 21:53									#7
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More importantly, who carez if warez iz a sick bird.

	02-02-2003 09:34									#8
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Next you'll tell me that smoking pot is illegal.

	02-02-2003 09:49									#9
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Looks like Taiwan, South Korea and North Korea is not on the list...

EDIT: NM, its under republic of korea.

	02-02-2003 11:10									#10
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I just can't see how software can be copyrighted, programs aren't artistic expressions.

	02-02-2003 11:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I just can't see how software can be copyrighted, programs aren't artistic expressions.

Intellectual property. Plenty of books out there aren't artistic expressions, but they are certainly copywrited (or should it be copywritten? )

	02-02-2003 11:17									#12
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Some books are stretching it, but still, everybody has a unique way of conveying thoughts and information, so they can be "artistic," I suppose.

Now there's absolutely no way you can say the same thing about programs. Intellectual property is a very contraversial subject right now, even if I concede the point that IP needs some form of protection as an incentive, it is still insane to put programs under copyright - what, 90 years of monopoly? That's mad. A new form is needed, perhaps to be ironed out under the WTO.

	02-02-2003 11:19									#13
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90 years is extreme, but software still needs to be protected.

	02-02-2003 12:16									#14
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j00 cannot stop teh warez. keep trying.

everything done so far to stop piracy has been overcome.

the only effective way to effectively monitor piracy is to install some internet-based security system whenever an app is activated, logging IP / serial # / etc, and i cant wait for someone to try that, watch the privacy lawsuits fly up.

	02-02-2003 13:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Some books are stretching it, but still, everybody has a unique way of conveying thoughts and information, so they can be "artistic," I suppose. Now there's absolutely no way you can say the same thing about programs.

You've really lived in China too long.

Software programs can be copyrighted in the same way that music, books, and art can. It's the act of creation, and it's simply not fair for you to spend all of your time working on software trying to sell it as some kind of non-tangible product (like music, etc) only to have everyone legally freeload off of it for free because they've got comfy jobs making $10K a year as lackey sysadmins and don't need a job as a software engineer.

Copyrights exist for computer software, as they should. If you don't like it, don't use programs that use it. Nobody is forcing you to copyright your programs or use copyrighted programs.

Your argument is absurd...

	02-02-2003 13:35									#16
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quote: I just can't see how software can be copyrighted, programs aren't artistic expressions. (...) Some books are stretching it, but still, everybody has a unique way of conveying thoughts and information, so they can be "artistic," I suppose.

If you could read bytecode, you would be able to look at code (programs) as a form of art. There are hundred of ways to code the same algorithm, and some are beautiful, others are ugly. Many coders tell of a code as being beautiful, ugly, or stinking.

	02-02-2003 14:38									#17
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First, I posted this because people actually WERE stating that in their country pirating is legal.

That article 4 was from the WIPO thing, which is BASED off of Berne.

Software can be copyrighted as the code can be printed, and the program can be placed onto CD or other tangible mediums. It is only the intangible that cannot be copyrighted. For example, I write a program. You like it, so you write your own with your own code (ie, not copying any of mine) and create a similar program. That is not infingement, as all your work was original (depite the idea not being).

In order to copyright, all you need is written (Copyright (C) 2003 John Doe), proof (mail to yourself, don't open letter. Prooves date of copyright).
In order to sure monetarily for infringement, then you have to put into the copyright office.
Hope that clears everything.

	02-02-2003 14:40									#18
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And I guess this convention also means that until the author of software has been dead for 50 years, abandonware is illegal. And no software authors have been dead that long, so all abandonware is technically illegal.

	02-02-2003 14:43									#19
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX j00 cannot stop teh warez. keep trying. everything done so far to stop piracy has been overcome. the only effective way to effectively monitor piracy is to install some internet-based security system whenever an app is activated, logging IP / serial # / etc, and i cant wait for someone to try that, watch the privacy lawsuits fly up.

I'm sure if Microsoft made the software, packaged it in windows, and hid it in the EULA somewhere, most people wouldn't know. And those who would either would switch to linux, or already have .

	02-02-2003 14:43									#20
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quote: And I guess this convention also means that until the author of software has been dead for 50 years, abandonware is illegal. And no software authors have been dead that long, so all abandonware is technically illegal.

Ada/Lady Lovelace has been dead since 1852, though.

	02-02-2003 14:47									#21
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sorry, you lost me at 'quote:'

	02-02-2003 14:51									#22
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She's generally accepted to be the first "computer programmer".

She was friends with Charles Babbage, De Morgan, and a bunch of other important computer people.

	02-02-2003 14:57									#23
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Oh, ok. I guess this is a story I haven't heard of before, and may look into if I'm bored . I'm sure it has some interest value in it.

	02-02-2003 22:10									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Software programs can be copyrighted in the same way that music, books, and art can. It's the act of creation, and it's simply not fair for you to spend all of your time working on software trying to sell it as some kind of non-tangible product (like music, etc) only to have everyone legally freeload off of it for free because they've got comfy jobs making $10K a year as lackey sysadmins and don't need a job as a software engineer. Copyrights exist for computer software, as they should. If you don't like it, don't use programs that use it. Nobody is forcing you to copyright your programs or use copyrighted programs. Your argument is absurd...

Yet another non-argument from Glonkie. You have not put forth anything to back up your argument at all, you have merely reinterated the same bald assertion, tossed out a strawman, whine about how freeloaders are thieves, then got a thick enough face to call my argument absurd.

Typical.

	02-02-2003 22:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare If you could read bytecode, you would be able to look at code (programs) as a form of art. There are hundred of ways to code the same algorithm, and some are beautiful, others are ugly. Many coders tell of a code as being beautiful, ugly, or stinking.

Bytecode? As in object code? No, that's definitely not art. It is like running a piece of text through an automatic translator and call the result art.

	02-02-2003 22:59									#26
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Of course, the term "art" can mean different things to different people...

	02-02-2003 23:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yet another non-argument from Glonkie. You have not put forth anything to back up your argument at all, you have merely reinterated the same bald assertion, tossed out a strawman, whine about how freeloaders are thieves, then got a thick enough face to call my argument absurd. Typical.

It's not my fault you don't understand the basics.

There are millions of ways to implement any given program. Software is non-tangible and a way millions of people make their living developing.

Copyright protects their intellectual property in the same way that there are laws against theft of physical objects.

If this is a non-argument I suggest you get your head examined...

	03-02-2003 01:21									#28
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Anything that is created out of someone's imagination, expression, or creativety can be art. But it is subjective anyways.

I don't see how anyone could not see how a computer game can be art, even if they are losing their artistic qualities in favour of commercialism (in much the same as hollywood movies) they will always have artistic potential - just as movies, paintings, and other media forms will.

	03-02-2003 01:34									#29
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I'd like to point out that art and technique are very difficult to distinguish. I chose the second word because its root (ancient greek techne) means both art and craft.
In French, craft is artisanat. Those just show that both art and craft have become differentiated only very recently, and any piece of craft can be viewed as art.
As for the point about bytecode, in fact, that would be more of assembly I was thinking about, which is a language. And if passing data through an automatic translator removres the art from the data, then what about art seen in tv or lisened in radio? Those are automatic translators.

	03-02-2003 01:57									#30
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The problem isn't with the concept of intellectual property per se, but rather how that is implimented. When the US first established copyrights, the purpose was to foster new creations by protecting the work of authors long enough that they could make a living being creative, but you'd have to continue creating new works if you wanted to live off your work.

The first copyrights were for seven years with a seven year extension being possible. Now days we have copyrights which extend 95 years past the life of the creator (it's a different length for corporate copyright holders). . . and yet patents only last 10 years.